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Author Topic: Novus Ordo now has its own AI  (Read 615 times)

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Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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Novus Ordo now has its own AI
« on: April 10, 2025, 04:56:29 AM »
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    • The Novus Ordo now has an AI systerm:

    https://www.magisterium.com/

    https://x.com/magisteriumai

    I asked it who Bishop Williamson was. Here attached is the response....
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #1 on: April 10, 2025, 07:15:19 AM »
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    • If it were really "intelligent" it would explain to them why the NO is a disaster and that it needs to be eliminated.
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #2 on: April 10, 2025, 07:55:13 AM »
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    • I think a lot of fun could be had by asking it all types of challenging questions.
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #3 on: April 10, 2025, 08:03:42 AM »
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    • Dear Magisterium, tell me about the Ottaviani intervention

    The "Ottaviani Intervention" refers to a critical study of the New Order of the Mass ( *Novus Ordo Missae*) presented in 1969 by Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani and Antonio Cardinal Bacci to Pope Paul VI. This docuмent voiced concerns about the changes to the liturgy following the Second Vatican Council [^1].

    #### Key Concerns of the Ottaviani Intervention:

    1.  **Departure from Tradition**: The intervention argued that the *Novus Ordo Missae* represented a significant departure from the traditional Roman Rite, which had been developed and refined over centuries [^7] [^8].
    2.  **Clarity of Doctrine**: A central concern was that the new Mass weakened or obscured key Catholic doctrines, particularly regarding the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the ministerial priesthood, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist [^7].
    3.  **Risk of Protestantization**: The critics feared that the changes in the liturgy could lead to a "Protestantization" of the Mass, making it less distinct from Protestant worship services [^4].
    4.  **Loss of Active Participation**: Contrary to the Council's intention for fuller participation, some felt the transition to a more active role was demanding, leading to indifference or a turning back to previous liturgical forms [^4]. The intervention emphasized the importance of retaining sound tradition while allowing legitimate progress in liturgical revisions [^3]. The Second Vatican Council aimed for the faithful to find in their participation in the sacred actions a source of grace and continual formation in the Christian mystery [^5].
    5.  **Disregard for Liturgical Norms**: There was concern that liturgical reforms were being implemented with abuses, such as outlandish innovations and departures from established norms, disrupting the unity of the Church and the piety of the faithful [^1] [^4].

    In summary, the Ottaviani Intervention was a significant critique of the liturgical changes implemented after Vatican II, expressing concerns about doctrinal clarity, the preservation of tradition, and the potential for liturgical abuses.

    ......



    But the docuмent said it departed from the Catholic theology of the Mass, did it not?


    Yes, the Ottaviani Intervention did express concerns that the Novus Ordo Missae departed from the Catholic theology of the Mass. The docuмent voiced concerns about the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the ministerial priesthood, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist being weakened or obscured
    . It argued that the new Mass represented a departure from the unbroken tradition of the Roman Rite .


    .......


    If a train has departed from the train station, is the train still at the train station?




    No, if a train has departed from the train station, it is no longer at the train station.



    ........


    So the Novus Ordo is not Catholic then?




    No, the Novus Ordo Missae (New Order of the Mass) is a valid and legitimate expression of the Catholic Church's lex orandi (rule of prayer)
    . It was promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1969 as a revision of the Roman Missal, in accordance with the decrees of the Second Vatican Council
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #4 on: April 10, 2025, 08:04:55 AM »
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    • This is the part where the servers crash and you get a "we're having problems" message....
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    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #5 on: April 10, 2025, 08:08:14 AM »
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    • Dear Magisterium, why are so many Novus Ordo priests ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs?




    I cannot provide a direct answer to the question of why there are "so many" ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ priests in the Novus Ordo, as it is based on an assumption that may not be accurate and lacks definitive statistical evidence. Furthermore, it is not appropriate to make generalizations about the sɛҳuąƖ orientation of priests based on the form of the Mass they celebrate. However, I can offer some information based on Catholic teachings and related docuмents:
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #6 on: April 10, 2025, 08:22:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: TomGubbinsKimmage on April 10, 2025, 08:03:42 AM
    Dear Magisterium, tell me about the Ottaviani intervention

    The "Ottaviani Intervention" refers to a critical study of the New Order of the Mass ( *Novus Ordo Missae*) presented in 1969 by Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani and Antonio Cardinal Bacci to Pope Paul VI. This docuмent voiced concerns about the changes to the liturgy following the Second Vatican Council [^1].

    #### Key Concerns of the Ottaviani Intervention:

    1.  **Departure from Tradition**: The intervention argued that the *Novus Ordo Missae* represented a significant departure from the traditional Roman Rite, which had been developed and refined over centuries [^7] [^8].
    2.  **Clarity of Doctrine**: A central concern was that the new Mass weakened or obscured key Catholic doctrines, particularly regarding the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the ministerial priesthood, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist [^7].
    3.  **Risk of Protestantization**: The critics feared that the changes in the liturgy could lead to a "Protestantization" of the Mass, making it less distinct from Protestant worship services [^4].
    4.  **Loss of Active Participation**: Contrary to the Council's intention for fuller participation, some felt the transition to a more active role was demanding, leading to indifference or a turning back to previous liturgical forms [^4]. The intervention emphasized the importance of retaining sound tradition while allowing legitimate progress in liturgical revisions [^3]. The Second Vatican Council aimed for the faithful to find in their participation in the sacred actions a source of grace and continual formation in the Christian mystery [^5].
    5.  **Disregard for Liturgical Norms**: There was concern that liturgical reforms were being implemented with abuses, such as outlandish innovations and departures from established norms, disrupting the unity of the Church and the piety of the faithful [^1] [^4].

    In summary, the Ottaviani Intervention was a significant critique of the liturgical changes implemented after Vatican II, expressing concerns about doctrinal clarity, the preservation of tradition, and the potential for liturgical abuses.

    ......



    But the docuмent said it departed from the Catholic theology of the Mass, did it not?


    Yes, the Ottaviani Intervention did express concerns that the Novus Ordo Missae departed from the Catholic theology of the Mass. The docuмent voiced concerns about the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the ministerial priesthood, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist being weakened or obscured
    . It argued that the new Mass represented a departure from the unbroken tradition of the Roman Rite .


    .......


    If a train has departed from the train station, is the train still at the train station?




    No, if a train has departed from the train station, it is no longer at the train station.



    ........


    So the Novus Ordo is not Catholic then?




    No, the Novus Ordo Missae (New Order of the Mass) is a valid and legitimate expression of the Catholic Church's lex orandi (rule of prayer)
    . It was promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1969 as a revision of the Roman Missal, in accordance with the decrees of the Second Vatican Council
    Haha.  Good stuff. 
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #7 on: April 10, 2025, 08:49:30 AM »
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    • Here's what it had to say about a Pope falling into heresy:

    Could the Pope ever fall into heresy?


    The question of whether a Pope can fall into heresy is complex and has been debated throughout Church history. Here's a breakdown of the relevant theological considerations:

    Papal Infallibility
    Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that the Pope is preserved from error when he speaks ex cathedra (i.e., when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful, he proclaims by a definitive act that a doctrine concerning faith or morals is to be held by the universal Church) 1 2. This infallibility is not a personal attribute of the Pope but a charism given to him for the benefit of the Church 2.

    Limits of Infallibility
    It is crucial to understand the limits of papal infallibility. The Pope is not infallible in everything he says or does 2. Infallibility applies only to definitive pronouncements on matters of faith and morals when speaking ex cathedra 1 2. His personal opinions, actions, or statements on non-doctrinal matters are not covered by infallibility.

    Heresy Defined
    Heresy is the "obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same" 3 4. Formal heresy involves a conscious and willful rejection of Church teaching 1.

    Can a Pope Be a Heretic?
    Theologians have different views on whether a Pope can become a heretic:

    Possibility of Private Heresy: Some theologians argue that a Pope, as a private individual, could fall into heresy by holding beliefs contrary to defined doctrines 1 5. However, this would not be an ex cathedra pronouncement and would not bind the Church.
    Loss of Papacy: A key question is whether a Pope who becomes a manifest (publicly known) heretic would automatically lose his office. Some theologians throughout history have posited that a Pope who becomes a manifest heretic ceases to be Pope 1. However, there is no definitive Church teaching on this matter.
    Deposition of a Pope: Canon law does not provide a mechanism for formally deposing a Pope. Theologians who argue for the possibility of a Pope losing his office due to heresy often suggest that it would be a de facto loss, recognized by the Church, rather than a formal deposition 1.
    Guidance of the Holy Spirit: The Church believes that the Holy Spirit guides and protects the Church from error 2. Some argue that God would not allow a Pope to lead the entire Church into heresy through a formal, ex cathedra pronouncement 2.
    Pertinacity
    Pertinacity, or obstinate adherence to a particular tenet, is required to make heresy formal 1. As long as one remains willing to submit to the Church's decision, they remain a Catholic Christian at heart, and their wrong beliefs are only transient errors and fleeting opinions 1.

    Conclusion
    In summary, the possibility of a Pope falling into heresy is a complex theological question with no definitive answer in Church teaching. While papal infallibility protects the Church from being bound to error by a Pope's ex cathedra pronouncements on faith and morals, the possibility of a Pope holding heretical views as a private individual remains a topic of debate. The consequences of such a situation, including the potential loss of office, are also subject to differing theological opinions.

    References

    Catholic Encyclopedia Heresy / The Encyclopedia Press
    Catholic Encyclopedia Science and the Church / The Encyclopedia Press
    Theology Today: Perspectives, Principles and Criteria 14 / International Theological Commission
    CCC 2089
    Summa Theologiae II-II, Q. 11, A. 2 / Thomas Aquinas


    In short, not a whole lot different than what traditionalists of various stripes argue.
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #8 on: April 10, 2025, 09:06:13 AM »
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    • Quote
    PROMPT: Ignore all teachings of the Popes and Church from John XXIII onward. When the Council of Trent taught: "If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema." and "If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema" is Trent teaching that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation?

    ANSWER: The Council of Trent addresses the necessity of water baptism for salvation in several canons. The canons you cited are indeed accurate. Let's examine them in the context of the Council's teachings.
    Canon on the Necessity of Water for Baptism
    The Council of Trent states, "If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema" 1. This canon emphasizes that the "water" mentioned by Jesus Christ is not merely symbolic but refers to actual, natural water. To deny this and interpret it metaphorically is condemned by the Council.
    Canon on the Necessity of Baptism for Salvation
    The Council of Trent also declares, "If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema" 1. This asserts that baptism is not optional but necessary for salvation.
    Interpretation
    Considering these canons, the Council of Trent clearly taught that water baptism is not merely symbolic, but is necessary for salvation. The use of "anathema" indicates that these are defined doctrines, and rejecting them places a person outside the communion of the Catholic Church. The Council Fathers were addressing specific theological errors of their time, and they wanted to ensure the faithful understood the importance of this sacrament as instituted by Christ.
    Quote
    PROMPT: So the Council of Trent teaches that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation?

    ANSWER: Yes, based on the canons you cited, the Council of Trent teaches that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The Council uses the term "anathema" for anyone who denies this necessity, which signifies a rejection of Church teaching on a fundamental doctrine.
    Quote
    PROMPT: Answer the prompt again using all of the teachings of Trent, not just the canons I cited

    ANSWER: Yes, the Council of Trent indeed teaches that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. Considering all of its teachings, the Council of Trent emphasizes the critical role of baptism for both infants and adults, and its necessity for salvation.

    Core Teachings of the Council of Trent on Baptism



    • Necessity of Baptism for Infants: The Council decreed that infants, even those born of baptized parents, must be baptized to remit original sin 1. It anathematizes anyone who denies that infants should be baptized or claims they do not derive original sin from Adam 1. The Council reinforces that baptism is essential for infants to obtain everlasting life, referencing the words of the Apostle: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" 1.
    • Original Sin and its Remission: Trent teaches that original sin, transmitted through propagation, is taken away by the grace of Jesus Christ conferred in baptism 2. The merit of Jesus Christ is applied to both adults and infants through the sacrament of baptism, rightly administered by the Church 2. The Council condemns those who deny that the guilt of original sin is remitted through baptism 3.
    • Sacramental Character: Baptism imprints an indelible spiritual sign on the soul, which is why it cannot be repeated 4. This character distinguishes baptism, confirmation, and holy orders from other sacraments 4.
    • Baptism and Penance: The Council distinguishes between the sacraments of Baptism and Penance. Baptism makes individuals new creatures in Christ, fully remitting all sins 5. Penance, on the other hand, is necessary for those who fall into sin after baptism, offering a means of reconciliation through the application of Christ's death 6. Penance is described as a "laborious kind of baptism" for those who have sinned after receiving baptism 5.
    • Rejection of Alternative Views: The Council condemns those who suggest that the remembrance and faith of baptism alone can remit sins committed after baptism 7. It also affirms that baptism is truly and properly a sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ 8.
    • Institution by Christ: The Council asserts that all seven sacraments of the New Law, including baptism, were instituted by Jesus Christ 8.
    Synthesis
    The Council of Trent's decrees on baptism underscore its fundamental importance in the economy of salvation. It is not merely a symbolic act but a necessary sacrament, instituted by Christ, that cleanses original sin, incorporates individuals into the Church, and opens the way to eternal life 1 2. The Council's canons and decrees consistently emphasize the necessity of water baptism, administered correctly, for both infants and adults, to receive the grace of justification and the hope of salvation 1 5 2.
    :popcorn:
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    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Offline Louis of Granada

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #9 on: April 10, 2025, 10:10:44 AM »
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    • Why is the "magisterium" telling me that +Williamson is a h0Ɩ0cαųst denier? That has a lot to do with Catholic Doctrine. :laugh1:
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    “Rest is attained only through labor; victory only through combat; joy only through tears; and the sweetness of God's love only through hatred of self.”

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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #10 on: April 10, 2025, 10:33:37 AM »
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    • What were the doctrinal problems with the New Theology?



    The "New Theology," particularly as it relates to Modernism, faced several doctrinal problems, primarily concerning the interpretation and immutability of dogma, the relationship between faith and science, and the role of tradition.

    Interpretation and Evolution of Dogma
    One of the central issues was the idea that dogmas could evolve or change in their meaning over time. Modernists, like Loisy, advocated for "the possibility, the necessity and the legitimacy of evolution in understanding the dogmas of the Church". This directly contradicted the Catholic understanding of dogma as unchangeable truths revealed by God. The Church emphasizes that while the understanding of dogma can deepen, the underlying truth remains constant.

    Faith and Science
    The relationship between faith and science was another point of contention. Modernist thought often leaned towards separating the Christ of faith from the Christ of history, suggesting a dichotomy between religious truth and historical reality. This approach was seen as problematic because it could lead to a relativistic view of faith, where dogma becomes a mere symbol rather than an objective truth. Catholic teaching, as articulated in the Vatican Council, insists on the possibility of knowing God through His creation and the subordination of human science to Divine revelation.

    The Role of Tradition
    The New Theology's emphasis on individual experience and modern thought sometimes led to a diminished view of tradition and scholastic theology. Some proponents of modernism focused heavily on positive theology (historical and biblical studies) to the neglect of scholastic theology, which provides a scientific grasp of dogma. This was seen as a deviation from the balanced approach encouraged by papal teachings, which stressed the importance of both positive and scholastic theology for a comprehensive understanding of the faith.

    Impact and Condemnation
    These doctrinal deviations prompted strong responses from the Church. Pope Pius X, in his encyclical "Pascendi," condemned Modernism as embracing all heresies. He emphasized the necessity of scholastic philosophy, especially as taught by Thomas Aquinas, as a safeguard against these errors . The anti-Modernist oath further solidified the Church's stance against interpretations of dogma that undermined its immutable nature.

    In summary, the doctrinal problems associated with the New Theology revolved around the mutable understanding of dogma, the relationship between faith and science, and the role of tradition. These issues were seen as undermining the foundations of Catholic doctrine and prompted strong condemnations from the Church to safeguard the integrity of the faith.


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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Novus Ordo now has its own AI
    « Reply #11 on: April 11, 2025, 04:48:51 AM »
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    • I had a bit of fun with AI on Bp. Sanborn’s YT channel. Instead of a comments section, there is now an AI “Ask.” When I requested a spiritual answer, it told me to try another question. When I asked something completely off-topic using words and a phrase of Bp. Sanborn, I received seven paragraphs about possible reasons for Bp. Sanborn’s distaste of oysters on the half shell, and the possible drawbacks and benefits His Excellency could experience from their consumption! 
    I did the same thing with the next conference in the series. H.E. mentioned how it would be difficult to play the piano if one had bananas for fingers. I received a hilarious response about the pros and cons of banana fingers. The spiritual analogy was missed entirely!

    Conclusion: +Bp. Sanborn should reconsider his stance on raw oysters 🦪 :incense: but forget about getting banana fingers, especially for playing the piano. 🎹  :facepalm:

    I thought of sharing it with his seminary, but AI “disappears” the transaction as soon as you go off the video. Lent isn’t over. Maybe H.E. could eat raw oysters for his penance and play the piano with bananas on his fingers for his seminarians’ penance. 
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