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Author Topic: Novus Ordo Indicators  (Read 1669 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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Novus Ordo Indicators
« on: December 31, 2025, 03:42:31 AM »
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  • The great hurdles it seems that are difficult to overcome to bring people to Catholicism and away from the Novus Ordo are particular devotions and those who are regarded as saints or examples to follow. Who come to mind are John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Mother Teresa as well as the Divine Mercy devotion. It is hard to convince anyone to look past the appearance of niceness and piety in these cases. Also, there is apparent cohesiveness.

    Any thoughts?

    I will admit that it is hard for me now to be around pictures of such Novus Ordo persons or devotions, but by the grace of God I hold back. I pray for Leo and the local Novus Ordo prelate to convert though. 
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Novus Ordo Indicators, John XXIII and Compromise - Sisi nono 1997
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 09:17:24 PM »
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  • Article written by P. Innocensio Colosio,. It appeared in an Italian review 'Rassegna di Ascetica e Mistica, s. Caterina da Siena' , July-Sept 1975

    Reprinted in Sisi nono, Reprint by The Angelus May 1997 8 page edition.

    I wish I would have read this 20 years ago...how the bad world portrays a saint.  The beginning is a touch strange, but most of this excerpt is true to life.  Re: Good Pope John.

    *******
    "...It is precisely these good and conciliatory people who become dangerous when placed in positions of authority, because they are easily manipulated by those who are stronger and more deceitful than they are. However, that is not exactly Nietzsche's perspective when he says that the good are harmful. To understand his paradoxical affirmations, one must place them within the concepts of the "super-man" and of the "will to dominate." Obviously, we do not subscribe to them, except in the curtailed sense of the popular saying:

        ‘The compassionate doctor, that is to say the "good-natured" doctor, allows the wound to become gangrenous.’

    Here is how Ernest Hello describes the kindly doctor (who is, naturally, anything but a good doctor):

      "What should we say of a doctor who, guided by a sentiment of kindliness, makes use of circuмspection towards his client's illness? Picture this personage so full of consideration!

      He would say to the sick man; "After all, my friend, one must be charitable. The cancer which consumes you is perhaps of good faith. Let's see for a little while. Be gentle, and try to develop a little friendship with it. One must not be intractable. Assist it in its nature. Perhaps there is in this cancer a little animal who nourishes itself with your flesh and blood. Would you have the heart to refuse him that which he needs? The poor little one would die of hunger! Besides, I am prepared to think that the cancer is of good faith and, I believe, performs a mission of charity in your service"
    (L'Homme, Florence, 1928, p. 70)

      Hello, himself, in this context, makes allusion to the danger of compromise in the matter of teaching. He had in fact written a bit before:

    "...He who compromises with error does not comprehend love in its fullness and its superlative power. Apparent peace, bought and paid for by compliance, is contrary as much to charity as to justice, because it creates an abyss where previously there had been only a ditch. Charity always desires the light, and the light does not tolerate even the shadow of a compromise."

      There is in the same work an amazing passage in which he describes the type of saint that the world would desire; and, on the matter of saints, it is the author of 'Physionomies de Saints' whose voice is heard here. This passage throws a beam of light on the universal sympathy that Pope Roncalli evoked even among men of the world, although, let it be well understood, his moral character only coincided in a very reduced proportion with that of the model described by Hello:

      "Try to picture a saint who would not hate sin!—The very idea of such a saint is ridiculous. And nevertheless that is the way the world pictures the Christian that it should canonize. The true saint has charity, but it is a terrible charity which burns and devours, a charity which detests evil because it wishes to heal. The saint which the world fancies would have a sweet charity, which would bless anyone and anything, in no matter what circuмstance. The saint that the world pictures would smile at error, smile at sin, smile at everyone, smile at everything. He would be without indignation, without profundity, without eminence, without regard for the unfathomable mysteries. He would be benign, benevolent, overly mawkish to the sick and indulgent of the sickness. If you want to be this saint, the world will love you, and it will say that you make Christianity loved. The world, which has the instincts of the enemy, never asks that you abandon the thing that you believe; it asks only that you compromise with that which is opposed to it. And then it declares that you make it love the Religion, which is to say that you become acceptable to it by ceasing to be a reproach to it.

      It affirms then that you resemble Jesus Christ, who pardoned sinners. Among all the confusion that the world cherishes, here is the one that it most greatly cherishes: it confuses pardon with approbation. Because Jesus Christ pardoned many sinners, the world wants to infer that Jesus Christ did not greatly detest sin (E. Hello, L 'Homme II, Les Alliances Spirituelles, Montreal, pp.197 ff)."

      We come at last to the end of these bitter disputes and harsh considerations, (imposed by suffering in face of the decay which devastates the Church in the domains of the faith, of practices and of discipline); in the presence of the frightful crisis of vocations, of the numerous defections of priests and religious, of the advance of atheistic communism—all of which evils derive, at least in part, from the lack of firmness and clear-sightedness in the pontifical governance of John XXIII. I can easily imagine what a wave of indignation is going to arise from those who are unreserved admirers of Pope Roncalli. In my partial exoneration, I will say that while the now-deceased Pope, "in order to please everyone," did not always brutally speak the truth, or, more correctly, that which he thought, the undersigned, on the contrary, by temperament and conviction, judges it expedient to manifest his thought harshly, even at the price of displeasing many, while however remaining prompt to retract if it is shown to him that he is wrong, since no one is infallible, especially in matters of history and the more so when it is a matter of very recent events.

    P. Innocenzo Colosio, O.P.
    Convent of the Dominican Fathers
    56027 S.Miniato (Pisa)

    ******
    Pray for our Holy Father Leo XIV, that he may condemn so many errors in society.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)


    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: Novus Ordo Indicators
    « Reply #2 on: Today at 06:14:59 AM »
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  • Yes, Roncalli set up the stage, and the spark was ignited by Montini. Luciani barely got a chance if at all. Wojtyla solidified and spread it. Ratzinger slowed it down and deceived. Bergoglio sped up the train aggressively. Prevost keeps it going even faster more covertly. 
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Novus Ordo Indicators
    « Reply #3 on: Today at 06:23:56 AM »
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  • The great hurdles it seems that are difficult to overcome to bring people to Catholicism and away from the Novus Ordo are particular devotions and those who are regarded as saints or examples to follow. Who come to mind are John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Mother Teresa as well as the Divine Mercy devotion. It is hard to convince anyone to look past the appearance of niceness and piety in these cases. Also, there is apparent cohesiveness.

    Any thoughts?

    I will admit that it is hard for me now to be around pictures of such Novus Ordo persons or devotions, but by the grace of God I hold back. I pray for Leo and the local Novus Ordo prelate to convert though.
    Someone once explained to me that the modern "Divine Mercy" devotion of Sister Faustina was meant to replace the devotion to the Sacred Heart and take way from the Octave of Easter.  That was enough to help me stop the "Divine Mercy" devotion.   Though I would like to clarify that there is an older more ancient (non-sister Faustina) devotion to the Divine Mercy of God which was actual actually approved by the Church prior to Vatican II.

    Then the "Luminous Mysteries"...  They were not given by Our Lady and Our Lady isn't even really included in several of the mysteries.   And...  If you add the Luminous mysteries the rosary no longer lines up with the Palms and can no longer be legitimately called "Our Lady's Psalter".

    These things being said...  I have found that most people don't want to be told the truth unless they ask questions.  So, I just pray and wait for people to ask.  :popcorn:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Online MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Novus Ordo Indicators
    « Reply #4 on: Today at 09:51:23 AM »
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  • The great hurdles it seems that are difficult to overcome to bring people to Catholicism and away from the Novus Ordo are particular devotions and those who are regarded as saints or examples to follow. Who come to mind are John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Mother Teresa as well as the Divine Mercy devotion.

    Any thoughts?

    This is my brother, and especially, my sister-in-law.  They are active in their church, run the 24/7 adoration chapel, have a homeschool program going with 80+ students, has a photo of himself meeting Chaos Frank as his phone screensaver, tells me to read 'John Paul the Great' and their bookshelf is lined with powerhouses like Henri de Lubac, Hans Urs von Balthasar and Scott Hahn.  She told me once, decades ago, "you don't know your theology."  What a disaster.  And that's when I was going to the SSPX.  Now that I've crossed to the dark side of sedevacantism there is even less to talk about.  lol


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo Indicators
    « Reply #5 on: Today at 10:25:54 AM »
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  • Someone once explained to me that the modern "Divine Mercy" devotion of Sister Faustina was meant to replace the devotion to the Sacred Heart and take way from the Octave of Easter.  

    Now, the WHY, aka the intention ... that's a matter for speculation.  Did Sister Faustina have psychological problems leading to the "devotion"?  Or was there actually some preternatural (aka diabolical) action taking place?  If the latter, that's definitely one plausible intention behind it.  But it could just be that Faustina was nuts, in which case the motivation might be up in the air.  Was there some pride there, hoping that she could be known for a revolutionary new devotion?  Or was she just imagining things?

    If diabolical, then that's where you start to speculate that it was to replace the Sacred Heart devotion.

    But if diabolical, I believe that the greater motivation was to increase presumption in God's Mercy.  There's almost never any emphasis on needing to go to Confession, but all kinds of verbiage about how you just say "mercy, mercy, mercy" over and over again, and you'll get mercy.  How about Confession and purpose of amendment?  When God has introduced genuine devotions, it was always in order to correct some bad trend or tendency that had developed, such as when during the Jansenist era He introduced devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, since people did not believe enough in His Mercy.  But in modern times there's absolutely NO shortage of people who believe in God's Mercy, and in fact they presume in it ... and have tossed aside any notion of God's Justice.  So God would not introduce a devotion that would amplify or exacerbate an error or bad trend.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo Indicators
    « Reply #6 on: Today at 10:32:10 AM »
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  • Yes, Roncalli set up the stage, and the spark was ignited by Montini. Luciani barely got a chance if at all. Wojtyla solidified and spread it. Ratzinger slowed it down and deceived. Bergoglio sped up the train aggressively. Prevost keeps it going even faster more covertly.

    You'll notice how cleverly they worked this.

    Wojtyla actually held the line on Catholic moral theology ... did nothing about it, of course, but at least paid lip service to it.  Between that and his occasionally being seen within 50 yards of a statue of Our Lady with his eyes closed and head bowed, sometimes holding a Rosary, they managed to get everyone to believe that he was this "santo subito", a great saint.

    Now, while people considered him a saint and he has this huge following among Conciliar conservatives, there was never a greater purveyor of religious indifferentism ever to (physically) sit in the Chair of Peter, where his activities along those lines make those of Bergoglio look like childsplay.

    So Wojtyla gutted dogmatic theology, promoting religious indifferentism, and got a lot of Conciliar conservatives to swallow those heresies.  If you listen today to the conservative Conciliar types, Catholic Answers, EWTN, you might think you're listening to some pre-Vatican II Thomists ... until they start talking about "separated brethren", salvation outside the Church, that the Sacraments are merely "helps" to salvation, etc. ... the wheels fall off into abject heresy.  That's due to the Saint Wojtyla the Great psy-op that they bought and swallowed.

    Once Wojtyla had finished the job there, they took a detour with Ratzinger to neutralize the growing Traditional movements, the opposition.  Ratzinger failed ... thanks to Bishop Williamson, and that having been his ONE JOB, he was told to step down by their handlers.

    Now comes Bergoglio to attack moral theology (which Wojtyla had left intact).

    This is all a plan, designed by Satan, to take down as many as possible ... and it's really been rather brilliant.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo Indicators
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 10:34:25 AM »
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  • I find it ironic that SSPX expelled Bishop Williamson, despite the fact that his h0Ɩ0h0αx interview was undoubtedly the only reason that SSPX did not end up getting completely neutralized over 10 years ago.  In other words, they owe their continuing existence, thus far, to Bishop Williamson.  Whether he did that on purpose to sabotage the talks, or whether God's Providence used him without any calculation on his part, we can't know, but use him God did.