(As a non sedevacantist) What would you think of a chapel or priest that was not recognized by the local ordinary because of their unwillingness to say the Novis Ordo Mass? How would you explain the validity of this situation to others?  

Quote from: Gabriella

(As a non sedevacantist) What would you think of a chapel or priest that was not recognized by the local ordinary because of their unwillingness to say the Novis Ordo Mass? How would you explain the validity of this situation to others?

All you need is a copy of Quo Primum.

No ecclesiastical authority of any rank (which includes the Pope) can ever forbid a Roman Rite priest from celebrating Mass according to the Missal of St. Pius V. That means the Traditional Latin Mass, and it is protected by the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, patron saints of the Roman Rite. This decree endures for all time and can never be changed.

It might help to explain that Quo Primum was always printed inside the front cover of every altar Missal, the first thing you see when you open the book, until it was omitted under Pope John XXIII in preparation for Vatican II, and the new missal of 1962. "Why do you suppose he removed it?" you can ask.

A not-unrelated question is why do Newchurch priests no longer pray the Athanasian Creed in their Sunday prayers as priests of longstanding memory all did before the Newmass came down the pike.

Quote from: TKGS

On the other hand, a non-sedevacantist should not be attending any service not approved by the local ordinary for doing so is, by definition, a schismatic act.

Oh come on, you had to get in your little "dig" against R&R.

Gabriella, his last paragraph (quoted above) is Sedevacantist rhetoric. Basically he's saying you SHOULD be a sedevacantist. He is denying the position of the SSPX, Resistance, etc. which "recognize and resist" the Pope.

The SSPX, and now the Resistance, are NOT schismatic. Such a position is only held by certain extreme sedevacantists.

If you ask me, it's the Sedevacantists who are schismatic. Which group is the one who cuts off and separates itself from the ENTIRE Catholic Church along with the whole body of laity, priests, and bishops? I'll give you a hint, it's not R&R. We distinguish.

I know that sedevacantists don't like the R&R position (or else they'd hold it themselves!) but you don't have to exaggerate, and say that it's schismatic.

Since you started it, I'm going to go ahead and give you MY opinion on Sedevacantism and most Sedevacantists.

Sedevacantism is for those Catholics concerned with the post-Vatican II changes, but they like their solutions easy and simple. They don't like a single element of mystery or something they can't wrap their (none too powerful) brains around. They are emotional and don't like doing a lot of thinking. They also have above-average pride; they like to feel special, rejecting the ENTIRE Conciliar Church with its 1 billion Catholics as "so many Protestants" and every Novus Ordo Mass as *exactly* a protestant service, always invalid and odious to God.

They don't have the courage to deal with the confusion and mess -- they prefer to just throw out the baby, the bathwater, burn down the house it was in, and move on with their lives.

Sedevacantism simply denies all the mystery of the Crisis in the Church. And it solves nothing, really. The mystery remains whether they like it or not! Ask any of them how the Church is going to be restored. They'll wax apocalyptic, talking about St. Michael, Sts. Peter and Paul personally coming back, heavenly intervention, etc. Long story short: they haven't a clue. But they pick one of these explanations, and say it's the 100% certain outcome, because (again) they can't stand mystery. They don't have the humility to bow before the mystery.

It also denies the plain reality of so many Catholics OF GOOD WILL entering Tradition on a near-daily basis as they discover it. And these Catholics don't need to start with confession. I'm not talking about conversions to God. I'm talking about they just discovered Tradition, and joined right up. They always intended to be Catholic -- during their Novus Ordo days and on into their life in Tradition.

Sedes would insist that it be MANDATORY for everyone from the N.O. to be conditionally re-baptized, catechized, perform a renunciation of their errors, and go to confession to confess at least one mortal sin: attending the Novus Ordo.

Oh, and they are almost ALWAYS somewhat bitter. I hardly ever meet one who shows the charity the Saints showed when you read Lives of the Saints.

Source: I've been a Trad my whole life, and I've run a Traditional Catholic message board for 10+ years which allowed Sedevacantists the whole time.
My description above applies TO A GREATER OR LESSER DEGREE to something like 80-90% of sedevacantists I've met.

Even those "good Catholics" who happen to be sedevacantists, I'd say they're a little rough around the edges, or a tad more bitter than they should be -- in other words, they'd be EVEN BETTER Catholics/people if they weren't sedevacantist.

So even in the cases of exceptions, they still would be even better without the sedevacantism.

And I'm very, very sorry, Sedevacantists, but the Look At The Fruits argument (suggested by Our Lord Himself, so it's a valid thing to consider) is FAR from conclusive in your favor. As a matter of fact, I'd even say it's more favorable to the R&R position...