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Author Topic: Not Just JPII, but John XXIII also to be canonized  (Read 677 times)

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Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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Not Just JPII, but John XXIII also to be canonized
« on: July 10, 2013, 12:28:19 PM »
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  • I mentioned this in another thread, but no one seemed to notice it, and I thought it needed a thread of its own. (Matthew -- please delete this if there's already a thread on the subject. I haven't been able to find one.) Anyway, long story short, Francis is canonizing John XXIII by fiat without the previously requisite two confirmed miracles. Here is a an article in Reuters about it:

    link to article

    Popes John Paul II, John XXIII to be made saints: Vatican

    By Philip Pullella
    VATICAN CITY | Fri Jul 5, 2013 1:18pm EDT

    (Reuters) - Pope John Paul II, the globe-trotting pontiff who led the Catholic Church for nearly 27 years, and Pope John XXIII, who called the reforming Second Vatican Council, will be declared saints, the Vatican said on Friday.

    The Vatican said Pope Francis had approved a second miracle attributed to John Paul, a Pole who was elected in 1978 as the first non-Italian pope in 450 years and died in 2005. His progression to sainthood is the fastest in modern times.

    The Vatican also said Pope John XXIII, who reigned from 1958 to 1963 and called the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council - which enacted sweeping reforms to modernize the Church - would be made a saint even though he has only been credited with one miracle since his death.

    The canonization ceremonies, which are likely to bring hundreds of thousands to people to Rome, are expected this year.

    John Paul had already been credited with asking God to cure a French nun of Parkinson's disease, the same malady he had, before he was beatified in 2011.

    Two confirmed miracles are usually required under Vatican rules for the declaration of a saint.

    The second miracle attributed to his intercession is the inexplicable curing of a Costa Rican woman who prayed to him for help with her medical condition on the day of his beatification.

    In the case of Pope John XXIII, who was known as the "good pope", Francis waived the customary rules requiring a second miracle after beatification, Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said. John XXIII was beatified in 2000.

    Francis, who has tried to instill a spirit of simplicity and reform in the Church since his election in March, is known to have great admiration for the reforming Pope John, who was born of peasant stock in northern Italy.

    John Paul went down in history as the "globe-trotting pope," visiting every inhabited continent in more than 100 trips outside Italy.

    LAST DAYS WATCHED BY WORLD

    His struggle with ill health was watched by millions around the world on television towards the end of his life.

    He was also credited with being instrumental in the fall of communism in Eastern Europe in 1989 because of his steadfast defense of the Solidarity trade union in his native Poland.

    After martial law was declared in Poland in 1981, he is believed to have told then-Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev that if Russia invaded Poland, he would return home.

    John Paul was nearly killed by Turkish gunman Mehmet Ali Agca, who shot him in St Peter's Square on May 13, 1981. Two trials failed to prove Italian magistrates' accusations that the Bulgarian secret services had carried out the plot with Agca on behalf of the Soviet Union.

    Millions of people attended his funeral in April, 2005, and many cried "Santo Subito" or "Make him a saint immediately".

    His successor, Benedict, waived a Church rule that normally requires a five-year waiting period before the preliminaries to sainthood can even begin.

    John Paul is respected by Jєωs because of his 1986 visit to Rome's ѕуηαgσgυє, the first by a pope to a Jєωιѕн temple.

    He is already considered a saint by millions of his countrymen in Poland, having supported their bid for freedom on the world stage for 11 years before the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989.

    "I am so happy and hardly can wait. John Paul II was one of a kind," said Ewa Jezierska, 72, a Polish saleswoman in Warsaw.

    Liberals in the Church say John Paul was too harsh with theological dissenters who wanted to help the poor, particularly in Latin America. Others say he should be held ultimately responsible for sɛҳuąƖ abuse scandals because they occurred or came to light when he was in charge.

    John Paul also drew criticism for supporting the late Father Marcial Maciel, the Mexican founder of the Legionaries of Christ religious order, defending him despite charges of sɛҳuąƖ abuse that later turned out to be true.

    John XXIII has for decades been venerated by Italians who recall his kind gestures. While he was pope for less than five years, his short pontificate coincided with the post-World War Two "economic miracle" that transformed Italy from a devastated agricultural backwater to an international economic power.

    (Additional reporting by Dagmara Leskowicz, editing by Barry Moody/Mark Heinrich)
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Not Just JPII, but John XXIII also to be canonized
    « Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 10:57:30 PM »
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  • .

    Among the inaccuracies above are these:

    Quote
    Two confirmed miracles are usually required under Vatican rules for the declaration of a saint.




    Actually, it is traditionally 3 (three) miracles that have been required, but
    JPII himself changed that long-held tradition (as well as numerous other
    long-held traditions!) to make it only two miracles required, and perhaps
    only one if the current pope so chooses.  Well, the current pope so
    chooses only one for John XXIII -- oh, by the way, we don't really know
    if the "one miracle" is believable, because JPII also changed the rigor by
    which the measly two miracles would be recognized, for example, he
    abolished the longstanding practice of the ADVOCATUS DIABOLI, the
    "devil's advocate," such that a candidate for sainthood has a kind of
    NGO/PAC** approach to being approved.  If there are any "skeletons in
    the closet" they will likely not be discovered, because the devil's advocate
    was all about challenging the process of canonization with evidence that
    would be contrary to its progress.

    **Non-Governmental Organization / Political Action Committee



    Quote
    The second miracle attributed to his intercession is the inexplicable curing of a Costa Rican woman who prayed to him for help with her medical condition on the day of his beatification.




    And so, do we have any doctors' testimonies?  Do we have any of the
    testimonies of doctors, especially, who say that the woman did not
    have any such "medical condition" in the first place, even if they are
    not to be believed?  That is the kind of thing that the devil's advocate
    would bring forward, but it will not be brought forward since there is
    no more devil's advocate.  



    Quote
    In the case of Pope John XXIII, who was known as the "good pope", Francis waived the customary rules requiring a second miracle after beatification, Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said. John XXIII was beatified in 2000.



    Actually, John XXIII was known as "Good Pope John," not "the good
    pope."  And it seems that he was so known not for his moral
    rectitude or awesome goodness but rather for his ability to be good
    for a laugh.  IOW they left out 3 words:  "The Good-For-A-Laugh
    Pope John."  He had a cheerful outlook on everything.  He was not
    about to be accused of 'gloom and doom.'  Check out his M.R.S.*** of
    1962 at the opening of Vat.II where he said so, literally.  He would
    have, effectively, no truck with the warnings of the Blessed Virgin
    Mary.  For of all human creatures she is the most prominent of those
    so-called prophets of gloom and doom.  

    ***Most Regrettable Speech, October 11th, 1962, Divine Maternity of Mary

    Can you blame her, when from where she stands she sees every day
    souls falling into hell like snowflakes?  

    In the Fatima apparitions, in September, the last one before the great
    Miracle of the Sun in October of 1917, the 30,000 people present
    saw flakes of something like flower petals drifting down from the sky,
    as if to fall on them, but as these flakes came close to the crowd
    overhead, they vanished just before they could be touched.  

    There has never been an explanation for what that meant.  This was
    after the Third Secret had already been given to the 3 shepherd
    children, Lucia, Jacinta and Francesco.  And none of them ever explained
    what the drifting petals meant.  Could it have been the image of graces
    that would be ours if we only would believe, but since we do not, the
    graces vanish before we can receive them?  Or, could it have been like
    souls falling into hell, where they are then forgotten in eternity, forever
    separated from the living in heaven?  Or, was it a reminder of the
    manna that fell from heaven and was the sustenance of the Israelites,
    but will not be our sustenance when the Mass is abolished or so many
    consecrations are invalid or when so many souls receive it unworthily
    such that they receive not grace but condemnation?

    It was JPII who "waived the customary rules of three (3) miracles,
    so this waiving of Francis of the second miracle tells anyone with eyes
    to see and ears to hear (or anyone with the ability to count backwards!)
    what the trend is.  Next thing you know, there will be NO MIRACLES
    required.  See?  From 3 to 2 to 1, and then next comes 0 (zero).  

    And it makes perfect sense, because   A)  these NeoModernists don't
    really want any part of Tradition even if they want people to think that
    they do, and   B)   they don't really believe in miracles anyway, so why
    make miracles a requirement?  And finally,  C)  it is their ultimate end
    to make everyone a saint, because everyone goes to heaven, because
    everyone is essentially good, and hell, if it exists at all, must be empty,
    for "hell is not a place," etc. (words of John Paul II the Ungreat).  



    Note:  I was going to put  D)  not having to have a second miracle  
    approved is, in a way, itself, the "second miracle," but that's an old
    joke and I thought I would be criticized for making an old joke so I
    didn't make it.  I don't want to be criticized!!  It really makes me sad!  :cry:


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Not Just JPII, but John XXIII also to be canonized
    « Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 11:47:11 PM »
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    You're not going to believe this but I'll tell it to you anyways:

    After all that, I forgot to say what I was going to write in the first
    place.  I was going to say that we should not forget (like I did!
    HAHAHAHAHAHA) that when John XXIII was so-called beatified
    in A.D. 2000, like the article says, John-Paul II put him on the
    coat-tails of Pope Pius IX, in order to appease the trads of the
    world.  

    You see, even JPII was terrified of the Resistance!  

    But apparently Pope Francis is a fearless man.  Call him intrepid,
    or call him foolhardy, as you wish, but he exhibits little to no
    fear of the Resistance.  

    HEBF* on the other hand is quite aware of, and fearful of, the
    Resistance.  

    Now, why would this be, this dichotomy?  Two men, one who
    doesn't want to be pope but is, and the other who isn't pope
    but would like to be, and the former is not afraid but the latter
    is afraid.  


    There I go, again, off topic.


    John XXIII was so-called beatified by JPII on the coat-tails of
    Pius IX, and now, JPII is to be so-called Newcanonized on the
    coat-tails of John XXIII.

    Help me with this -- I'm getting the image of a sort of
    DAISY-CHAIN-SAINTHOOD, whereby everyone is holding on
    to the coat tails of the guy in front of him.  This is so strange.




    Or, is it the other way around, since the second miracle for
    Good-for-a-joke Pope John is missing?  If so, then John
    XXIII is being so-called Newcanonized on the coat-tails of
    JPII, such that Good-for-a-joke Pope John is now to become,

    Good-for-the-last-laugh Pope-Saint-John?



    If so, you don't need the "XXIII" because there has never been
    any "Good-for-the-last-laugh Pope-Saint-John" before, so this
    would be the FIRST.


    One more thing, if that's not bad enough.  

    They say when his remains were exhumed, he was found to have
    turned over somehow, such that he was face-down in his coffin.  
    Now, perhaps with this new "TURN" of events, he will then once
    more "be turning over in his grave," such that now he'll be facing
    "upright," and if two wrongs can't make a right, perhaps now
    two injustices can make him upright.  




    Rim-shot.




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    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    Not Just JPII, but John XXIII also to be canonized
    « Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 01:41:44 PM »
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  • Would making a blind man lame count as a miracle?
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori

    Offline Iuvenalis

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    Not Just JPII, but John XXIII also to be canonized
    « Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 02:00:13 PM »
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  • "Fr." Guido Sarducci used to have a gag:

    "The Vatican says you needa three miracles to become a Saint, but two of them canna be card tricks"

    Who knew he was a revelator?