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Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2018, 12:14:19 AM »
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  • I am not promoting a New Age religion where Hell is empty. If it were empty there would be no reason for it to exist. I am merely saying that without a particular revelation we cannot know for certain who is there and who is not.
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    wrong, we know the jew who dies a jew goes to hell, there is no baptism of desire in the case where a jew dies a jew,

    St. Fulgentius
    (468-533), Bishop: "Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #46 on: December 23, 2018, 05:45:37 PM »
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  • Poche, it's not personal. Not at all. I'm just worried that you'll lead people astray if they go on this forum and immediately see heresy.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca


    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #47 on: December 23, 2018, 10:44:50 PM »
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  • Tell me, Poche, how does one desire something of which he is invincibly ignorant?
    The grace of God

    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #48 on: December 23, 2018, 11:15:37 PM »
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  • What "faith" are you spreading? Your Vatican II "faith" is not necessary for salvation by your own admission. That is why the vast majority of Catholics have left the Church (less than 5% of Catholics go to mass in France and other European Catholic countries.), and it is of no interest to the rest of the world. You are basically a fool to real Catholics and to the world, just like "Bishop" Barron and all of the Vatican II church, just another false religion among thousands of others (World Day of Prayer for Peace of Assisi?)
    I am spreading the same Faith that was taught when we used the Baltimore Catechism. I refer to them when I try to answer Mr. Shapiro's question.  

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #49 on: December 24, 2018, 01:32:20 AM »
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  • I am spreading the same Faith that was taught when we used the Baltimore Catechism. I refer to them when I try to answer Mr. Shapiro's question. 

    Baltimore catechism is infused with heresies including Americanism.
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #50 on: December 24, 2018, 01:47:07 AM »
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  • Poche, it's not personal. Not at all. I'm just worried that you'll lead people astray if they go on this forum and immediately see heresy.
    The Baltimore Catechism does not teach heresy. It was the catechism that generations of Catholic children were brought up with until Vatican II.   

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #51 on: December 24, 2018, 07:56:42 PM »
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  • The Baltimore Catechism does not teach heresy. It was the catechism that generations of Catholic children were brought up with until Vatican II.   

    Wrong. There was incremental heresy within the Church, as manifested in the Baltimore Catechism, leading up to Vatican II. These creeping heresies are what made Vatican II possible. Vatican II didn't come out of nowhere. Even Pope St. Pius X warned the Church of the creeping heresies long before Vatican II.

    Baltimore Catechism teaches the heresy that people can be saved in false religions, and the heresy of "baptism of desire and blood".
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #52 on: December 24, 2018, 10:12:50 PM »
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  • The qualifier is Peace to Men of Good Will.




    If one is of "Good Will" he will hear Our Lord's command to believe and get Baptized.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #53 on: December 24, 2018, 10:43:51 PM »
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  • I haven't heard of the Baltimore Catechism teaching that people are saved by false religions. It states very clearly;
    Q. 508. Why did Christ found the Church?
    A. Christ founded the Church to teach, govern, sanctify, and save all men.

    Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
    A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.

    And also later on it says;

    Q. 515. How do you answer such excuses?
    A.
    1.(1) To say that we should remain in a false religion because we were born in it is as untrue as to say we should not heal our bodily diseases because we were born with them.
    2.(2) To say there are too many poor and ignorant in the Catholic Church is to declare that it is Christ's Church; for He always taught the poor and ignorant and instructed His Church to continue the work.
    3.(3) To say that one religion is as good as another is to assert that Christ labored uselessly and taught falsely; for He came to abolish the old religion and found the new in which alone we can be saved as He Himself declared.

    Q. 516. Why can there be only one true religion?
    A. There can be only one true religion, because a thing cannot be false and true at the same time, and, therefore, all religions that contradict the teaching of the true Church must teach falsehood. If all religions in which men seek to serve God are equally good and true, why did Christ disturb the Jewish religion and the Apostles condemn heretics?

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church

    Also with respect to where he said that Hell, it it exists is almost empty, I repeat what St Alphonsus de Ligouri said, "Those who deny the existence of Hell are those most likely to go there." 
    Wrong. There was incremental heresy within the Church, as manifested in the Baltimore Catechism, leading up to Vatican II. These creeping heresies are what made Vatican II possible. Vatican II didn't come out of nowhere. Even Pope St. Pius X warned the Church of the creeping heresies long before Vatican II.

    Baltimore Catechism teaches the heresy that people can be saved in false religions, and the heresy of "baptism of desire and blood".

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #54 on: December 25, 2018, 05:51:00 PM »
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  • I haven't heard of the Baltimore Catechism teaching that people are saved by false religions. It states very clearly;
    Q. 508. Why did Christ found the Church?
    A. Christ founded the Church to teach, govern, sanctify, and save all men.

    Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
    A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.

    And also later on it says;

    Q. 515. How do you answer such excuses?
    A.
    1.(1) To say that we should remain in a false religion because we were born in it is as untrue as to say we should not heal our bodily diseases because we were born with them.
    2.(2) To say there are too many poor and ignorant in the Catholic Church is to declare that it is Christ's Church; for He always taught the poor and ignorant and instructed His Church to continue the work.
    3.(3) To say that one religion is as good as another is to assert that Christ labored uselessly and taught falsely; for He came to abolish the old religion and found the new in which alone we can be saved as He Himself declared.

    Q. 516. Why can there be only one true religion?
    A. There can be only one true religion, because a thing cannot be false and true at the same time, and, therefore, all religions that contradict the teaching of the true Church must teach falsehood. If all religions in which men seek to serve God are equally good and true, why did Christ disturb the Jewish religion and the Apostles condemn heretics?

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church


    The following excerpt from the Baltimore Catechism is the creeping heresy, among others, that was subtly infused into this Americanist "catechism". The slithery that is you conveniently omitted it:

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true

    Church?

    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that

    person:

    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;

    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and

    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    # 2 states that if the person believes and practices his false religion of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, New Age, etc. to be the "true religion", he can be saved. This is absolutely against numerous ex cathedra decrees by various popes, which affirm that no person outside of the Catholic Church can be saved. Such persons, as specified by these same infallible decrees, are Jews, heretics, Muslims, schismatics, pagans, non-believers, etc, who are damned eternally.

    Quote
    Also with respect to where he said that Hell, it it exists is almost empty, I repeat what St Alphonsus de Ligouri said, "Those who deny the existence of Hell are those most likely to go there."

    You're insidious. St. Ligouri didn't say Hell is almost empty. You said it.
    St. Ligouri is communicating the fact that people, who don't believe in Hell, usually commit the most heinous crimes because they think there will be no consequences for their sins, thus, these very sins warrant them eternal perdition more than anyone. That doesn't mean people who commit lesser evils, but still die in the state of mortal sin, don't go to hell.
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #55 on: December 25, 2018, 10:40:05 PM »
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  • If his ignorance is invincible then it is possible for him to be saved by the baptism of desire.

    This has nothing to do with invincible ignorance or baptism of desire.

    Why every single time the salvation of a non-Catholic is concerned, these two notions are brought up promptly as somehow interconnected? They are actually different concepts.

    Ben Shaphiro's claim to salvific righteousness is based upon his observance of the Mosaic Law. He made the reference very explicitly during the interview. Apparently, his strict observance of the Ten Commandments and the Jewish 613 mitzvot, gains him entrance to Heaven, as was proposed in the Old Testament.

    Remember, according to the new religion emanating from the Vatican, Jews are somehow heirs of Heaven without needing conversion (and the 2,000 year old conduct of Holy Mother Church in relation to the Jews has been wrong all along).
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #56 on: December 25, 2018, 10:43:02 PM »
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  • The following excerpt from the Baltimore Catechism is the creeping heresy, among others, that was subtly infused into this Americanist "catechism". The slithery that is you conveniently omitted it:

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true

    Church?

    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that

    person:

    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;

    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and

    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    # 2 states that if the person believes and practices his false religion of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, New Age, etc. to be the "true religion", he can be saved. This is absolutely against numerous ex cathedra decrees by various popes, which affirm that no person outside of the Catholic Church can be saved. Such persons, as specified by these same infallible decrees, are Jews, heretics, Muslims, schismatics, pagans, non-believers, etc, who are damned eternally.

    You're insidious. St. Ligouri didn't say Hell is almost empty. You said it.
    St. Ligouri is communicating the fact that people, who don't believe in Hell, usually commit the most heinous crimes because they think there will be no consequences for their sins, thus, these very sins warrant them eternal perdition more than anyone. That doesn't mean people who commit lesser evils, but still die in the state of mortal sin, don't go to hell.
    I did not intend to say that St Alphonsus Ligouri said that Hell was almost empty. It is alleged that Bishop Barron said that. I say that that is a dangerous thing to be saying because St Alphonsus Ligouri said that those who are most likely to go to Hell are those who did not believe in its existence. If hell is almost empty it is almost as if it did not exist. 

    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #57 on: December 25, 2018, 10:50:49 PM »
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  • This has nothing to do with invincible ignorance or baptism of desire.

    Why every single time the salvation of a non-Catholic is concerned, these two notions are brought up promptly as somehow interconnected? They are actually different concepts.

    Ben Shaphiro's claim to salvific righteousness is based upon his observance of the Mosaic Law. He made the reference very explicitly during the interview. Apparently, his strict observance of the Ten Commandments and the Jewish 613 mitzvot, gains him entrance to Heaven, as was proposed in the Old Testament.

    Remember, according to the new religion emanating from the Vatican, Jews are somehow heirs of Heaven without needing conversion (and the 2,000 year old conduct of Holy Mother Church in relation to the Jews has been wrong all along).
    Any claim by Mr Shapiro's is based on his own ignorance. I think we should pray for his conversion every day and leave the judgement to God.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #58 on: December 25, 2018, 11:21:33 PM »
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  • Any claim by Mr Shapiro's is based on his own ignorance. I think we should pray for his conversion every day and leave the judgement to God.

    I agree that we should pray for his conversion every day and leave the ultimate judgment to God. However, from what we observe, we can say that, at present time, he is neither an "invincible ignorant" of our Holy Religion; nor he is a catechumen.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #59 on: December 25, 2018, 11:22:59 PM »
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  • The following excerpt from the Baltimore Catechism is the creeping heresy, among others, that was subtly infused into this Americanist "catechism". The slithery that is you conveniently omitted it:

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true

    Church?

    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that

    person:

    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;

    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and

    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    # 2 states that if the person believes and practices his false religion of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, New Age, etc. to be the "true religion", he can be saved. This is absolutely against numerous ex cathedra decrees by various popes, which affirm that no person outside of the Catholic Church can be saved. Such persons, as specified by these same infallible decrees, are Jews, heretics, Muslims, schismatics, pagans, non-believers, etc, who are damned eternally.

    # 2 can't be talking about judaism,muslims,buddhists since they are not baptised...I'm assuming it's referring to protestants..no?..
    St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: Objection- “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith.  St. Thomas replies- It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance.  In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him

     

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