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Offline JezusDeKoning

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Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2018, 01:35:01 AM »
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  • From the Baltimore Catechism;

    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?
    A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
    ...But Ben Shapiro hasn't been baptized, genius. Maybe in his lifetime, he may go the way of the Apostles, or the Ratisbonne brothers and convert and live a pious, Catholic life. But right now, no.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #16 on: December 20, 2018, 04:59:54 AM »
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  • ...But Ben Shapiro hasn't been baptized, genius. Maybe in his lifetime, he may go the way of the Apostles, or the Ratisbonne brothers and convert and live a pious, Catholic life. But right now, no.
    If his ignorance is invincible then it is possible for him to be saved by the baptism of desire.


    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #17 on: December 20, 2018, 06:29:55 AM »
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  • I guess I should stop praying for my mom to get baptized before she dies.   ::)
    **Gave up posting for Lent** If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #18 on: December 20, 2018, 07:42:02 AM »
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  • If his ignorance is invincible then it is possible for him to be saved by the baptism of desire.

    False.  He must also have supernatural faith and supernatural charity; ignorance cannot be salvific but merely exculpatory.  And explicit knowledge of and supernatural faith in the Holy Trinity and the central mysteries of the Lord's Incarnation are required for supernatural faith.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #19 on: December 20, 2018, 09:34:01 AM »
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  • As a Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven from Bishop Barron


    Ben Shapiro recently had Bishop Robert Barron on his show. You can watch the full interview here. I want to draw our attention to one very specific question posed to the Bishop.

    Shapiro : “I’m a Jew. I follow the Law. Can I go to Heaven”? Part of interview is here.


    https://catholicism.org/as-a-non-believing-jew-ben-shapiro-gets-a-free-pass-to-heaven-from-bishop-barron.html



    That video came up on my Youtube offerings, but I looked at the "Bishop" in the picture and figured it was some Protestant "minister". I never bothered to watch it. Turns out I was right. He's Novus Ordo, same dung in different packaging. He may not even be a valid priest let alone a bishop. Is he effeminate too? 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #20 on: December 20, 2018, 10:53:58 AM »
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  • Looks like Ben and Bishop Barron both need to visit Cathinfo's Feeney Ghetto... to get some education :farmer:

    Funny how the jews and their hirelings, since the Crucifixion, have constantly tried to get into Heaven through some mysterious backdoor.

    And the Bishop of LA is their boy to open the imaginary door for them.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #21 on: December 20, 2018, 10:56:36 AM »
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  • If his ignorance is invincible then it is possible for him to be saved by the baptism of desire.
    Poche,

    No "Merry Christmas" for you, but that you be punished, in this world, for your heresy!
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #22 on: December 20, 2018, 11:17:10 AM »
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  • Quote
    If his ignorance is invincible then it is possible for him to be saved by the baptism of desire.
    The fact that Ben knows 1) the Church exists, 2) there is a pope and a hierarchy, 1 of whom he invited on his show, 3) the story of Jesus Christ, 4) the Church's stance that only good Catholics get to heaven, and 5) that the Church's stance on salvation is so unique that he wanted to ask about it...

    All of this shows Ben's ignorance is NOT invincible in ANY degree.  In fact, Ben's quite knowledgeable and therefore his rejection of the Faith (if he dies in his rejection) prevents his salvation, per Church teaching.  


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #23 on: December 20, 2018, 11:27:31 AM »
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  • The fact that Ben knows 1) the Church exists, 2) there is a pope and a hierarchy, 1 of whom he invited on his show, 3) the story of Jesus Christ, 4) the Church's stance that only good Catholics get to heaven, and 5) that the Church's stance on salvation is so unique that he wanted to ask about it...

    All of this shows Ben's ignorance is NOT invincible in ANY degree.  In fact, Ben's quite knowledgeable and therefore his rejection of the Faith (if he dies in his rejection) prevents his salvation, per Church teaching.  

    Yep.  It's interesting how Invincible Ignorance, which was first applied to a jungle native who had never heard about Our Lord, now extends to someone who full well knows about the Church and Christianity.  It started with ignorance of fact, an intellectual thing, and then moved to "doesn't know it to be the true religion" (more an "ignorance of the will" as it were) ... so that those two or three people who have ever lived who knew it to be the true religion and refused to join it anyway are certainly lost.

    "Yep.  Christ is God, and the Church is the True Church He founded and commanded us to join.  But no thanks.  I don't want to enter that Church."  How many of those are there?

    Online 2Vermont

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    **Gave up posting for Lent** If any one saith, that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety, rather than offices of piety; let him be anathema. - Council of Trent

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #25 on: December 20, 2018, 10:52:35 PM »
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  • That video came up on my Youtube offerings, but I looked at the "Bishop" in the picture and figured it was some Protestant "minister". I never bothered to watch it. Turns out I was right. He's Novus Ordo, same dung in different packaging. He may not even be a valid priest let alone a bishop. Is he effeminate too?
    I'll take that a step further... prior to Bp Barron, Shapiro had on a protestant minister (about 3 weeks ago). I watched a 6 minute clip of that interview and found the minister to be pretty straightforward in his explanation as to why Jews should embrace Christianity. I actually thought Shapiro might be considering a conversion at that point.
    .
    Then, I watched a couple of clips from this joke of a "bishop" and I felt it was more likely that Shapiro brought this guy on the show just to laugh at Catholicism because I suspect that he knows good and well what the actual teaching of the Catholic Church is on the matter.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #26 on: December 20, 2018, 10:54:33 PM »
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  • Quote
    Here is Novus Ordo Watch's take:

    https://novusordowatch.org/2018/12/robert-barron-ben-shapiro-no-need-to-become-catholic/


    How can they correctly cite Pope Gregory XVI, yet write this:

    https://novusordowatch.org/2016/01/francis-subtle-heresy-true-christian/


    Quote
    Note in particular point no. 2: You must profess the True Faith. Pius XII does not say you need only to believe it, regardless of what you profess. This distinction, again, is crucial because it directly impacts the visibility of the Church: While it is possible, through invincible ignorance, to mistakenly assent to a heresy and yet retain the virtue of Faith, if you outwardly profess your adherence to this heresy, you cease to be a member of the Church. (This contradicts Francis’ other error, this time an error of excess contrary to his error of defect being exposed here, according to which all the baptized are members of the Church, regardless of what Faith they profess. This too is heresy.)

    For this reason, the Catholic Church cannot regard individual members of heretical sects as Catholics even if they are not culpable with regard to their heresies and perhaps even possess the virtue of Faith. (The rejection of this all-important consideration is one of the fundamental errors of the False Ecclesiology of Vatican II, which grants “partial communion” to heretics on account of a valid baptism. Please also listen to our podcast on this question.)
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #27 on: December 20, 2018, 11:15:58 PM »
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  • Yep.  It's interesting how Invincible Ignorance, which was first applied to a jungle native who had never heard about Our Lord, now extends to someone who full well knows about the Church and Christianity.  It started with ignorance of fact, an intellectual thing, and then moved to "doesn't know it to be the true religion" (more an "ignorance of the will" as it were) ... so that those two or three people who have ever lived who knew it to be the true religion and refused to join it anyway are certainly lost.

    "Yep.  Christ is God, and the Church is the True Church He founded and commanded us to join.  But no thanks.  I don't want to enter that Church."  How many of those are there?
    Jesus died to save us from our sins but He didn't die and make you psychic reader to be able to see into the secret of men's hearts. we can conjecture and we might be right, but we could also be wrong. Only God can see into the interior secret of men's hearts.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #28 on: December 20, 2018, 11:19:20 PM »
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  • Jesus died to save us from our sins but He didn't die and make you psychic reader to be able to see into the secret of men's hearts. we can conjecture and we might be right, but we could also be wrong. Only God can see into the interior secret of men's hearts.

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9nostis.htm

    On the Church in the Pontifical States

    Pope BI. Pius IX - 1849

    Quote
    10. In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.[4] The Catholic laity and clergy should repeatedly offer special thanks to God in public prayers for the priceless gift of the Catholic religion. They should also beseech God to protect the profession of this faith in our country and to keep it unharmed.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Non-Believing Jew Ben Shapiro Gets a Free Pass to Heaven
    « Reply #29 on: December 20, 2018, 11:30:56 PM »
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  • http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9nostis.htm

    On the Church in the Pontifical States

    Pope BI. Pius IX - 1849
    And we should also promote the spread of that Faith.

     

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