Author Topic: No real problem with Vatican II (Read 4649 times)

Alcuin · « **on:** September 01, 2013, 03:52:52 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

EENS.

Of course, if you believe that Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims, and various other schismatics, heretics, infidels, and pagans can be saved, then you have to say there's no error in Vatican II.

What's strange is that there are traditionalists who condemn Vatican II as heresy but believe that souls in the above groups can be saved.

They undermine their own resistance and condemn their very own position.

Quote

..those who are separated from the Catholic Church have the anger of God upon them, and will go to hell, no matter what other virtues they may have, unless they are excused from fault because of invincible ignorance.

Bishop Sanborn - The New Ecclesiology

TCat · « **Reply #1 on:** September 01, 2013, 06:21:00 AM »

If the apostles believed in salvation outside the church, they would not have preached and died as martyrs for the church.

Lets say st paul finds the town where they make statues to the goddess Diana.
According to Vatican 2 -> instead of preaching that they need to convert to be saved, the apostles formally go to the statue idol makers and start dialogue with them, after all, these idols are a way that people are drawn to the true church are they not? So they start dialogue and exchange gifts, and eventually the statue makers are allowed into Christian communities to give them a taste of statue worship, as if it was zen or yoga.
meanwhile the Jєωs realise that Christianity is a sham and abandon it until the only Christians left are fαɢɢօts and child molesters and freemasons and one world ultra egalitarian dictatorship advocates.

Alcuin · « **Reply #2 on:** September 01, 2013, 07:20:04 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus also

And it's not just a side issue. It's THE issue. EVERY Vatican II error derives from the false ecclesiology that's intertwined with EENS-denial.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2013, 08:59:58 AM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: Ladislaus
EENS. Of course, if you believe that Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims, and various other schismatics, heretics, infidels, and pagans can be saved, then you have to say there's no error in Vatican II.

I believe there is a misunderstanding of the above. Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims and various other etc. ... can be saved, IF they give up their false beliefs and embrace the TRUTH before they pass into eternity, even if it's the last second of their life, unknowing to any witnesses of their passing. It is true that God can give graces in an instant, He knows the heart and soul of each person. Not saying and we should not believe He gives this special grace to every dying person, but He does answer prayers of others who might be praying for such a person. In the end, it is always based on the freewill of the dying person.

On the other hand, someone who appears to have been a good Catholic in the eyes of the beholder, might just lose their soul in the end, they might have despaired or cursed God in their mind, we do NOT know the disposition of every soul on earth, we do not know God's plan for each and every persons, since His timing is perfect for grace given.

The BIG error of Vatican II, is they teach it is NOT NECESSARY to embrace the Catholic Faith EVER. That there is salvation in your own erroneous belief system. They believe that God is everywhere, and He is, but not in the sense that Vatican II wants all to believe. So yes, there is error in Vatican II because of the sin of omission with any instruction about EENS, they insist that Jesus died for ALL, mankind but forget to mention that ALL mankind does not embrace the truth of the Trinity.

Jehanne · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2013, 10:17:22 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

The BIG error of Vatican II, is they teach it is NOT NECESSARY to embrace the Catholic Faith EVER. That there is salvation in your own erroneous belief system. They believe that God is everywhere, and He is, but not in the sense that Vatican II wants all to believe. So yes, there is error in Vatican II because of the sin of omission with any instruction about EENS, they insist that Jesus died for ALL, mankind but forget to mention that ALL mankind does not embrace the truth of the Trinity.

Even if this is true, this "error" was corrected by the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

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1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

The only exception for non-Catholics would be this:

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1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

The "way known to God" is troubling. Are there ways of salvation only known to God and not to man? What does "pre-Vatican II" theology teach on this? Is this what Saint Thomas Aquinas meant about desiring Baptism "implicitly"?

Cathedra · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2013, 11:20:37 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

I believe there is a misunderstanding of the above. Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims and various other etc. ... can be saved, IF they give up their false beliefs and embrace the TRUTH before they pass into eternity, even if it's the last second of their life, unknowing to any witnesses of their passing.

That's a GIVEN.

Everyone knows ANYONE can be saved and that there are deathbed conversions.

But that's not what Sanborn is talking about. He is saying they are EXCUSED if they are in I.I., that they can be saved outside the Church without the Faith.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #6 on:** September 01, 2013, 11:49:06 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

I believe there is a misunderstanding of the above. Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims and various other etc. ... can be saved, IF they give up their false beliefs and embrace the TRUTH before they pass into eternity, even if it's the last second of their life, unknowing to any witnesses of their passing. It is true that God can give graces in an instant, He knows the heart and soul of each person. Not saying and we should not believe He gives this special grace to every dying person, but He does answer prayers of others who might be praying for such a person. In the end, it is always based on the freewill of the dying person.

On the other hand, someone who appears to have been a good Catholic in the eyes of the beholder, might just lose their soul in the end, they might have despaired or cursed God in their mind, we do NOT know the disposition of every soul on earth, we do not know God's plan for each and every persons, since His timing is perfect for grace given.

The BIG error of Vatican II, is they teach it is NOT NECESSARY to embrace the Catholic Faith EVER. That there is salvation in your own erroneous belief system. They believe that God is everywhere, and He is, but not in the sense that Vatican II wants all to believe. So yes, there is error in Vatican II because of the sin of omission with any instruction about EENS, they insist that Jesus died for ALL, mankind but forget to mention that ALL mankind does not embrace the truth of the Trinity.

I'll tell you why this is completely wrong. If they are baptized, and accept the Catholic Faith, THEY ARE NO LONGER A Jєω, THEY ARE NO LONGER A MUSLIM, THEY ARE NO LONGER A PROTESTANT!

Jєωs, Muslims, and Protestants CANNOT BE SAVED!

MyrnaM · « **Reply #7 on:** September 01, 2013, 02:26:53 PM »

With all due respect to POT, and this is what I mean by misunderstanding...I thought I covered your reply when I posted above. "IF they give up their false beliefs and embrace the TRUTH before they pass into eternity, even if it's the last second of their life, unknowing to any witnesses of their passing."

Alcuin · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2013, 06:50:55 PM »

Quote from: Cathedra

Quote from: MyrnaM
I believe there is a misunderstanding of the above. Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims and various other etc. ... can be saved, IF they give up their false beliefs and embrace the TRUTH before they pass into eternity, even if it's the last second of their life, unknowing to any witnesses of their passing.

That's a GIVEN.

Everyone knows ANYONE can be saved and that there are deathbed conversions.

But that's not what Sanborn is talking about. He is saying they are EXCUSED if they are in I.I., that they can be saved outside the Church without the Faith.

And Myrna seems to have missed that fact.

SJB · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2013, 06:59:47 PM »

Quote from: Cathedra

But that's not what Sanborn is talking about. He is saying they are EXCUSED if they are in I.I., that they can be saved outside the Church without the Faith.

I don't think he has said this at all.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2013, 07:25:08 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Cathedra
But that's not what Sanborn is talking about. He is saying they are EXCUSED if they are in I.I., that they can be saved outside the Church without the Faith.

I don't think he has said this at all.

No wonder I missed it!

Cathedra · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2013, 08:08:09 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Cathedra
But that's not what Sanborn is talking about. He is saying they are EXCUSED if they are in I.I., that they can be saved outside the Church without the Faith.

I don't think he has said this at all.

Of course you don't. You seem to believe as he does.

But in reality i think you're just playing dumb.

The New Ecclesiology: Docuмentation is filled with invincible ignorance. He uses it as an exception as is clear to anyone who reads it.

It's a docuмented fact that all these people, Sanborn, Cekada, Dolan, even Lefebvre, Fellay, Williamson etc. all believe and believed, that souls can be saved in any religion, outside the Church, and without the Catholic Faith or any belief in Christ, which is direct heresy.

"We know this!", Fellay says.

Alcuin · « **Reply #12 on:** September 01, 2013, 11:37:17 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Cathedra
But that's not what Sanborn is talking about. He is saying they are EXCUSED if they are in I.I., that they can be saved outside the Church without the Faith.

I don't think he has said this at all.

What do you think he said then?

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #13 on:** September 02, 2013, 09:31:29 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

With all due respect to POT, and this is what I mean by misunderstanding...I thought I covered your reply when I posted above. "IF they give up their false beliefs and embrace the TRUTH before they pass into eternity, even if it's the last second of their life, unknowing to any witnesses of their passing."

Then they are NO LONGER Muslim, Jєωιѕн, or Protestant. That's the point. It's not mere misunderstanding. Say yes when you mean yes, and no when you mean no. They MUST be Catholic first, which means they shed their old beliefs, and are no longer espousing error. So you cannot call them a Jєω, Protestant, or Muslim any longer. They must be Catholic!

MyrnaM · « **Reply #14 on:** September 02, 2013, 09:39:39 AM »

Of course they are Catholic, when they embrace the truth, even if this embracing is only seen by God.

All of Heaven rejoice when this happens, can you just imagine. Reminds me of the story of how the shepherd leaves his entire flock to seek out the one that was lost.

I read once where one of Our Ladies greatest sorrows was the thought of her Son dying for entire mankind and she knew in her sorrowful heart so many would still reject Him.

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So you cannot call them a Jєω, Protestant, or Muslim any longer. They must be Catholic!

The misunderstanding is the world still calls them Jєω, Protestant, or Muslim, God knows His own.

I can not say yes, or no, because I am not God.

I remember learning from the good nuns, if we get to heaven we might be surprised who will be there and who will not.