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Author Topic: NFP Thought  (Read 9409 times)

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Offline Merry

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Re: NFP Thought
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2018, 08:25:16 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, Pius XII opened the door to evolution ... with disastrous consequences, opened the door to Catholic birth control ... with disastrous consequences, began the liturgical experimentations and appointed Bugnini to lead them ... with disastrous consequences, supported the Heresiarch Cushing against the defender of the faith Father Leonard Feeney ... with disastrous consequences, and appointed most of the modernist bishops who ended up bringing us the glories of Vatican II.
    And since Our Lady said on June 13, 1929 that the time had come for the Holy Father to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, we have to conclude that the burden to do this passed on to Pius XII, who did not get it done although liking to call himself "the Fatima Pope."  If he had done it, there would have been no World War II.
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Online jen51

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #61 on: February 04, 2018, 08:32:12 PM »
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  • Marian exploitation according to the method of louis de montfort is the cause of this.  Mary is a creature.  Creature worship is the hallmark of all false religions.  It is the only immediate reason I can give for our immediate problems.      
     I had two look twice- I can't believe I'm seeing such a thing on a Catholic forum. Sorry, but what you wrote is incredibly insulting towards Our Lady. 
    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #62 on: February 04, 2018, 08:43:00 PM »
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  • PG sounds to me like a rabid protestant.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #63 on: February 04, 2018, 09:35:48 PM »
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  • Are you saying that Louis de Montfort encourages worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
    I read his book, and I did not get that impression at all. We are to follow her lead, and worship her Son and our God.
    Yes.  But, it is fashioned in the same ways as vatican 2.  Opposites are utilized in such ways only capable of I will say by the devil.  So, unless you are for the most part none of these, or for the most part all of these, you will not pick up on it.  It is mainly isolated to his book true devotion the the blessed virgin mary.  However, it also extends to his book the secret of mary if memory serves me. 
    He clearly expressed that a temporal queen has the god given right and duty to own and take the life(murder) of her slaves as her pleasure sees fit, providing the foundation for his merit-less slave of our lady religious charism.  Consequently, this also means he denies merit as taught by the catholic church.  And, that is two strikes, one in faith, and the other in morals, twin sisters of each other.  These two are both clearly expressed in his book, and that is all that is needed to condemn him.  It scratches the surface.  And, I am a man.  That is all I wish to do.  
    This is the reason why he was rejected from so many religious functions.  

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #64 on: February 04, 2018, 09:45:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    He clearly expressed that a temporal queen has the god given right and duty to own and take the life(murder) of her slaves as her pleasure sees fit,
    Can you give a quote from the book, please, PG?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline Fanny

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #65 on: February 04, 2018, 09:52:04 PM »
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  • Fanny,

    Some of these trad cath young men do fall in love with beautiful attractive women, and as part of their engagement period, these same young trad catholics lovingly tell their fiancées to start dressing modestly.

    Funny you should mention this.

    When I was dating eligible young men, and when I mentioned the scarcity of eligible young Catholic men, my priest told me that he thought it was my goal in life to meet a good handsome Protestant man, help convert him, and then marry him..  The priest  reminded me of the Epistle of St. James, which encourages us to lead others to the Holy Faith, and thus, save our souls and theirs in the process.  This is indeed what happened. Read on.

    In a true marriage, the couples should lead each other to Christ. In fact, not only is the marriage bed to be undefiled, but also the children are to be raised to be saints. In a true domestic church, all are called to sanctity with the husband taking the role as spiritual leader in his family, leading the prayers, and setting a good example for the children.

    In a study done for his Master's of Divinity, a priest studied the effect a father has on his children. If the father regularly attended Mass and other services at the parish church, and faithfully led prayers in the home, his children became very devout and followed his example.  If the father did not lead the prayers at home and made excuses not to attend church whenever possible, even if his wife was faithful in her prayer life and church duties, their children were not devout, and often did not remain Catholic.

    My confessor also gave youth retreats and encouraged young men and women to seek beautiful spouses who needed to be enlightened by the Holy Faith. His reasoning: men are attracted to beautiful women and once these handsome men win the hand of a beautiful young maiden, she will listen to him and will start dressing more modestly, etc. Furthermore, beautiful women -- beautiful in heart, mind, body, and soul -- will attract good men. These men in turn will want to know the source of their inward beauty. This happened with me. My husband asked what church I attended, started attending that parish with me, and soon he became a catechumen. He was baptized, confirmed, and communed on St. Dominic's day, his patron saint, one month prior to our marriage. He said that it was the most awesome experience.

    I said nothing about beauty, only about vanity.  
    I have not seen the fiancees change the way the young ladies dress.  The young men actually encourage the ladies to flaunt it more.
    Your confessor was, sadly, right to encourage you to seek outside the Church for a spouse.  It is a sad state of affairs when proper young ladies must seek a spouse outside the Church.

    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #66 on: February 04, 2018, 10:10:28 PM »
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  • Can you give a quote from the book, please, PG?
    A sin against the 5th commandment is the foundation of his spirituality.  

    71. There is a world of difference between a servant and a slave. 1) A servant does not give his employer all he is, all he has, and all he can acquire by himself or through others. A slave, however, gives himself to his master completely and exclusively with all he has and all he can acquire. 2) A servant demands wages for the services rendered to his employer. A slave, on the other hand, can expect nothing, no matter what skill, attention or energy he may have put into his work. 3) A servant can leave his employer whenever he pleases, or at least when the term of his service expires, whereas the slave has no such right. 4) An employer has no right of life and death over a servant. Were he to kill him as he would a beast of burden, he would commit murder. But the master of a slave has by law the right of life and death over him, so that he can sell him to anyone he chooses or - if you will pardon the comparison - kill him as he would kill his horse. 5) Finally, a servant is in his employer's service only for a time; a slave for always.
     
    And, no, I will not "pardon" his comparison.  Christ determines law, not ceasar.

    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #67 on: February 04, 2018, 10:18:58 PM »
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  • Nadir -  Much of what de montfort says has to be pieced together like a puzzle, making it not so easy.  But, this can be pieced together fairly easily.  

    76. Moreover, if, as I have said, the Blessed Virgin is the Queen and Sovereign of heaven and earth, does she not then have as many subjects and slaves as there are creatures? "All things, including Mary herself, are subject to the power of God. All things, God included, are subject to the Virgin's power", so we are told by St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine and St. Bonaventure. Is it not reasonable to find that among so many slaves there should be some slaves of love, who freely choose Mary as their Queen? Should men and demons have willing slaves, and Mary have none? A king makes it a point of honour that the queen, his consort, should have her own slaves, over whom she has right of life and death, for honour and power given to the queen is honour and power given to the king. Could we possibly believe that Jesus, the best of all sons, who shared his power with his Blessed Mother, would resent her having her own slaves? Has he less esteem and love for his Mother than Ahasuerus had for Esther, or Solomon for Bathsheba? Who could say or even think such a thing?


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #68 on: February 04, 2018, 11:43:24 PM »
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  • Nadir -  Much of what de montfort says has to be pieced together like a puzzle, making it not so easy.  But, this can be pieced together fairly easily.  

    76. Moreover, if, as I have said, the Blessed Virgin is the Queen and Sovereign of heaven and earth, does she not then have as many subjects and slaves as there are creatures? "All things, including Mary herself, are subject to the power of God. All things, God included, are subject to the Virgin's power", so we are told by St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine and St. Bonaventure. Is it not reasonable to find that among so many slaves there should be some slaves of love, who freely choose Mary as their Queen? Should men and demons have willing slaves, and Mary have none? A king makes it a point of honour that the queen, his consort, should have her own slaves, over whom she has right of life and death, for honour and power given to the queen is honour and power given to the king. Could we possibly believe that Jesus, the best of all sons, who shared his power with his Blessed Mother, would resent her having her own slaves? Has he less esteem and love for his Mother than Ahasuerus had for Esther, or Solomon for Bathsheba? Who could say or even think such a thing?

    Reading that part of De Montfort's book bothered me. I remember being told by my confessor to stop reading this book if it troubled me spiritually.

    Instead, my priest encouraged me to read and reread The Dialogues of St. Catherine of Siena. I learned much from St. Catherine, especially about discernment. This book on discernment helped me later on as I began to realize the harm done by Vatican II and all the "theology books" written extolling the spirit of Vatican II, which is diabolic, and definitely not the Holy Spirit.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #69 on: February 04, 2018, 11:46:02 PM »
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  • I said nothing about beauty, only about vanity.  
    I have not seen the fiancees change the way the young ladies dress.  The young men actually encourage the ladies to flaunt it more.
    Your confessor was, sadly, right to encourage you to seek outside the Church for a spouse.  It is a sad state of affairs when proper young ladies must seek a spouse outside the Church.
    We need more priests with a missionary heart who can reach our youth.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #70 on: February 05, 2018, 01:17:51 AM »
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  • Fanny,

    Some of these trad cath young men do fall in love with beautiful attractive women, and as part of their engagement period, these same young trad catholics lovingly tell their fiancées to start dressing modestly.

    Funny you should mention this.

    When I was dating eligible young men, and when I mentioned the scarcity of eligible young Catholic men, my priest told me that he thought it was my goal in life to meet a good handsome Protestant man, help convert him, and then marry him..  The priest  reminded me of the Epistle of St. James, which encourages us to lead others to the Holy Faith, and thus, save our souls and theirs in the process.  This is indeed what happened. Read on.

    In a true marriage, the couples should lead each other to Christ. In fact, not only is the marriage bed to be undefiled, but also the children are to be raised to be saints. In a true domestic church, all are called to sanctity with the husband taking the role as spiritual leader in his family, leading the prayers, and setting a good example for the children.

    In a study done for his Master's of Divinity, a priest studied the effect a father has on his children. If the father regularly attended Mass and other services at the parish church, and faithfully led prayers in the home, his children became very devout and followed his example.  If the father did not lead the prayers at home and made excuses not to attend church whenever possible, even if his wife was faithful in her prayer life and church duties, their children were not devout, and often did not remain Catholic.

    My confessor also gave youth retreats and encouraged young men and women to seek beautiful spouses who needed to be enlightened by the Holy Faith. His reasoning: men are attracted to beautiful women and once these handsome men win the hand of a beautiful young maiden, she will listen to him and will start dressing more modestly, etc. Furthermore, beautiful women -- beautiful in heart, mind, body, and soul -- will attract good men. These men in turn will want to know the source of their inward beauty. This happened with me. My husband asked what church I attended, started attending that parish with me, and soon he became a catechumen. He was baptized, confirmed, and communed on St. Dominic's day, his patron saint, one month prior to our marriage. He said that it was the most awesome experience.

    I think this is a beautiful story and I am glad that it turned out so well for you. However, I would not encourage my children to look for spouses outside the Faith, not even with the zealous purpose of converting that person to bring him / her into the Church. Actually, the opposite is true, I insist vehemently in that the future spouse be a Traditional Catholic already and preferably born and raised in a Traditional Catholic family. Many times, what happens in this situation you describe is that the non-Catholic suitor, will pretend, under the effects of the initial infatuation, to convert to the Faith, but this is only temporarily so they can marry; but then he will lose interest in the Faith and may abandon it altogether.

    I am sure there are stories with happy endings such as yours, but the risk involved outweighs the benefit, in my opinion.  I would be very sad if one of my children were to marry a Protestant...and probably utterly devastated if they marry a non-Christian. I would be very suspicious of a sudden conversion, under the effects of a youthful romance.

    It surprises me greatly that a confessor would advice this. Catholics are obliged to marry other Catholics, not outside the Faith. A confessor advising a Catholic girl to even consider a Protestant suitor is alarming, probably unheard of before Vatican II. Historically, the Church has always condemned mixed marriages and for a good reason! See here:

    http://www.calefactory.org/sac-mat-mixedmarriage.htm
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #71 on: February 05, 2018, 02:55:28 AM »
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  • Thank you for the quotes, PG. Somehow the offending post seems to have disappeared but it is still there in Jen's post.

    Quote from: PG on Yesterday at 08:14:07 PM
    Quote
    Marian exploitation according to the method of louis de montfort is the cause of this.  Mary is a creature.  Creature worship is the hallmark of all false religions.  It is the only immediate reason I can give for our immediate problems.      

    I have not read anything of St Louis Mary de Montford, even though I have the books in my possession by inheritance. Somehow the thought of reading them has never appealed to me. I must say that the expression Slaves of Our Lady does make me feel uncomfortable, rightly or wrongly.

    The distinction between slave and servant is clear. The most troublesome part is the claim that a master has the right of life and death over the slave. But Our Lady is only ever heard to speak for her children against God's wrath and to beg for their life as a loving mother. God only has the right of life and death, and Mary asks God for mercy on our behalf. 

    I've course I'd need to read more of the book to get an overall picture.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #72 on: February 05, 2018, 05:19:55 AM »
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  • I think this is a beautiful story and I am glad that it turned out so well for you. However, I would not encourage my children to look for spouses outside the Faith, not even with the zealous purpose of converting that person to bring him / her into the Church. Actually, the opposite is true, I insist vehemently in that the future spouse be a Traditional Catholic already and preferably born and raised in a Traditional Catholic family. Many times, what happens in this situation you describe is that the non-Catholic suitor, will pretend, under the effects of the initial infatuation, to convert to the Faith, but this is only temporarily so they can marry; but then he will lose interest in the Faith and may abandon it altogether.
    I agree, even though I personally have a "happy ending" story.  When my husband started dating me I was Protestant.  When we became engaged, I started attending Mass to see what it was like.  I felt drawn by Our Lord in the Eucharist and became Catholic.

    But the odds are against it turning out that way and I would never encourage a Catholic to become engaged to a non-Catholic.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #73 on: February 05, 2018, 08:15:06 AM »
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  • Yeah, the priest that's telling people to marry "beautiful" non-Catholics is giving completely garbage advice.  For every ONE of these marriage conversions that turns out well, NINETY-NINE go bad.  I know of several where the minute things got rocky, as happens in most marriages at some point, the "converted" spouse immediately reverted back to his/her former ways, sought divorce, and abandoned any practice of the Catholic faith.  Especially suspect are the pre-marriage conversions, the one where a spouse converts prior to marriage.  I would venture to say that 95% of these are bogus ... just done to get along and for social reasons.  But these conversions rarely run deep.  Now, I've seen a few where the spouse converts AFTER marriage, and these are more often genuine.

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #74 on: February 05, 2018, 08:46:05 AM »
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  • Fanny,

    Some of these trad cath young men do fall in love with beautiful attractive women, and as part of their engagement period, these same young trad catholics lovingly tell their fiancées to start dressing modestly.

    Funny you should mention this.

    When I was dating eligible young men, and when I mentioned the scarcity of eligible young Catholic men, my priest told me that he thought it was my goal in life to meet a good handsome Protestant man, help convert him, and then marry him..  The priest  reminded me of the Epistle of St. James, which encourages us to lead others to the Holy Faith, and thus, save our souls and theirs in the process.  This is indeed what happened. Read on.

    In a true marriage, the couples should lead each other to Christ. In fact, not only is the marriage bed to be undefiled, but also the children are to be raised to be saints. In a true domestic church, all are called to sanctity with the husband taking the role as spiritual leader in his family, leading the prayers, and setting a good example for the children.

    In a study done for his Master's of Divinity, a priest studied the effect a father has on his children. If the father regularly attended Mass and other services at the parish church, and faithfully led prayers in the home, his children became very devout and followed his example.  If the father did not lead the prayers at home and made excuses not to attend church whenever possible, even if his wife was faithful in her prayer life and church duties, their children were not devout, and often did not remain Catholic.

    My confessor also gave youth retreats and encouraged young men and women to seek beautiful spouses who needed to be enlightened by the Holy Faith. His reasoning: men are attracted to beautiful women and once these handsome men win the hand of a beautiful young maiden, she will listen to him and will start dressing more modestly, etc. Furthermore, beautiful women -- beautiful in heart, mind, body, and soul -- will attract good men. These men in turn will want to know the source of their inward beauty. This happened with me. My husband asked what church I attended, started attending that parish with me, and soon he became a catechumen. He was baptized, confirmed, and communed on St. Dominic's day, his patron saint, one month prior to our marriage. He said that it was the most awesome experience.
    What is most interesting about your post is how you equated "beautiful attractive women" with my comment of " liberally-dressed young ladies".

    Perhaps rather than convert your husband completely he converted you a bit? 
    I will no longer wonder why some young ladies dress so liberally and the young men fall all over them.  You have made it clear it is their upbringing.