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Author Topic: NFP Thought  (Read 8423 times)

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Offline PG

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Re: NFP Thought
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2018, 09:31:39 PM »
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  • Fanny - heribert jone is no authority.  He taught that spousal sodomy was no sin at all.  He is simply an agent of those "individuals" masquerading as married couples.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Fanny

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #31 on: February 02, 2018, 10:21:41 PM »
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  • Why would any female ever want to get married then, if her husband could have his way with her anytime he wanted and she has no say in the matter?

    This is asinine.  There is no way God thinks that is o.k.


    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #32 on: February 02, 2018, 10:39:56 PM »
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  • Fanny - perhaps if women would stop striving toward sensual deism, they might experience men not acting like animals around them.  And, this might relieve them of many of the misconceptions they have about men.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #33 on: February 02, 2018, 10:50:21 PM »
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  • Fanny - perhaps if women would stop striving toward sensual deism, they might experience men not acting like animals around them.  And, this might relieve them of many of the misconceptions they have about men.  
     Not everything is woman's fault.

    Offline Marlelar

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #34 on: February 02, 2018, 11:09:47 PM »
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  • I have noticed the trend on CI of men being very concerned about their "rights" and also with blaming women for most of the problems in their marriages, home, family, and even the world.  

    I have not noticed a similar trend with the women blaming the men.



    Offline Fanny

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #35 on: February 02, 2018, 11:57:28 PM »
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  • I have noticed the trend on CI of men being very concerned about their "rights" and also with blaming women for most of the problems in their marriages, home, family, and even the world.  

    I have not noticed a similar trend with the women blaming the men.
    Not surprising considering the type of men I generally see in trad cath circles.  Really sad.

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #36 on: February 03, 2018, 12:26:42 AM »
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  • Fanny - perhaps if women would stop striving toward sensual deism, they might experience men not acting like animals around them.  And, this might relieve them of many of the misconceptions they have about men.  
    It is interesting to note that, at all the trad chapels I have been to, trad cath young men fall all over the liberally-dressed young ladies at church and then marry them, while the modest young ladies go unnoticed and unmarried.
    Is it woman's fault men LOOK for loose women?  
    Furthermore, men expect women to have loads of children, homeschool them, perform duties of a housewife, tend the finances, perhaps have a job outside the home, stay in shape and be attractive to her husband at all times.  While men have one job, do what they please around the house, get fat, and have their way with their wife as they please.  Are you kidding me?!

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #37 on: February 03, 2018, 06:28:18 AM »
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  • Fanny - heribert jone is no authority.  He taught that spousal sodomy was no sin at all.  He is simply an agent of those "individuals" masquerading as married couples.

    While it is unfortunate he wrote that, it is a matter under debate by knowledgeable authorities.  There are matters where theologians disagree and the Church has not ruled one way or the other.  This is not sufficient reason to throw out everything Jone has ever said about anything.

    I think Fr. Scott's explanation of the marital debt that I quoted earlier in the thread remains the best I have seen, including his quotes from Jone as to exceptions.  

    Quote
    Father Heribert Jone OFMCap (born January 30, 1885 in Schelklingen , Wurttemberg , † December 25, 1967 in Stühlingen , Baden ) was a Catholic priest , church lawyer and moral theologian .

    The son of a merchant and city treasurer joined in 1904 in the Capuchin Order and completed his studies in philosophy and theology. In 1910 he was ordained a priest in Cologne . A year later, he began his studies in Canon Law at the Pontifical GregorianUniversity in Rome, but interrupted this, to act from 1913 to 1919 on the Carolines as a missionary. After his return he continued his studies and received his doctorate in 1922 to the doctor of canon law (Dr. iur. Can.). From 1924 to 1949 he then worked as a lecturer at the Order of the Capuchin Monastery in Münster , where he was also synodal judge from 1925 at the marriage court.

    His importance for Catholic teaching acquired Jone through his two major works, the Commentary to the Codex Iuris Canonici (CIC) of 1917 and the "Catholic Moral Theology " (1930, 18 editions to 1961 or 1964; Translations into French, Dutch, Italian, English , Portuguese, Arabic). His book on moral theology was standard work for the education and training of clerics and so widespread and well-known that it appears even in Graham Green's novel Monsignor Quixote as a court of conscience "the Jone".


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #38 on: February 03, 2018, 06:33:11 AM »
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  • I have noticed the trend on CI of men being very concerned about their "rights" and also with blaming women for most of the problems in their marriages, home, family, and even the world.  

    I have not noticed a similar trend with the women blaming the men.
    Try reading this:

    It is interesting to note that, at all the trad chapels I have been to, trad cath young men fall all over the liberally-dressed young ladies at church and then marry them, while the modest young ladies go unnoticed and unmarried.
    Is it woman's fault men LOOK for loose women?  
    Furthermore, men expect women to have loads of children, homeschool them, perform duties of a housewife, tend the finances, perhaps have a job outside the home, stay in shape and be attractive to her husband at all times.  While men have one job, do what they please around the house, get fat, and have their way with their wife as they please.  Are you kidding me?!


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #39 on: February 03, 2018, 06:53:44 AM »
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  • Concerning Jone's questionable views on certain matters, I think this comment from Ladislaus in an old thread is the best approach:

    Quote
    But I think that it's probably a waste of time for non-professional lay people like us to dwell on this.

    Since many approved reputable theologians seem to hold this position, that it's not grave sin per se so long as the marital act reaches its completion in a natural way, a Catholic who does so while following the position of these theologians would certainly not be committing a grave sin (cf. St. Alphonsus' "probabilism" vis-à-vis moral theology).  That's not to say that such Catholics would not sin at least venially (and perhaps even with relatively-serious venial sin) due to excessive indulgence in pleasure.  That's not to say that such a thing would please God or would be compatible with seeking perfection.  But it's only to say that it wouldn't constitute grave sin.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/heribert-jone-and-denzinger-on-spousal-sodomy-warning/msg463272/#msg463272

    Jone remains an "approved reputable theologian" even he takes a position we disagree with in this debate.  It is not right to dismiss his entire work.  

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #40 on: February 03, 2018, 12:15:24 PM »
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  • Try reading this:
     I was speaking tongue in cheek in the last paragraph.  It is clear that went over your head.
    I should have said:
    Furthermore, according to most the  men here, they expect wives to have loads of children, homeschool them, perform duties of a housewife, tend the finances, perhaps have a job outside the home, stay in shape and be attractive to her husband at all times.  While men have one job, do what they please around the house, get fat, "punish" their wife, and have their way with their wife as they please.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #41 on: February 03, 2018, 03:50:45 PM »
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  • I was speaking tongue in cheek in the last paragraph.  It is clear that went over your head.
    I should have said:
    Furthermore, according to most the  men here, they expect wives to have loads of children, homeschool them, perform duties of a housewife, tend the finances, perhaps have a job outside the home, stay in shape and be attractive to her husband at all times.  While men have one job, do what they please around the house, get fat, "punish" their wife, and have their way with their wife as they please.
    Just about every post you have made in this thread has been a negative generalization about men and/or trad men.  In this post you are misrepresenting their views. You come across as hostile and unhappy.  I wish there were something I could do to help.  Life is so much better when we have positive feelings about men.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #42 on: February 03, 2018, 07:32:19 PM »
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  • It is interesting to note that, at all the trad chapels I have been to, trad cath young men fall all over the liberally-dressed young ladies at church and then marry them, while the modest young ladies go unnoticed and unmarried.
    Is it woman's fault men LOOK for loose women?  
    Furthermore, men expect women to have loads of children, homeschool them, perform duties of a housewife, tend the finances, perhaps have a job outside the home, stay in shape and be attractive to her husband at all times.  While men have one job, do what they please around the house, get fat, and have their way with their wife as they please.  Are you kidding me?!

    So, did you marry such a one as you describe here?  Not all Traditional Catholic men are like this.  Similarly, for all that some men complain about women, not all woman are like their characterizations either.  You need to stop with the generalizations because they serve no purpose.  You come across as a bitter feminist and a misandrist with these rants.  You sound like you're about a short step or two from embracing lesbianism.

    Indeed, I have known SOME men who are exactly as you describe here.  But I have known a lot of good men too who are mistreated by their wives.  It goes both ways.  There are both good and bad among both the sexes.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #43 on: February 03, 2018, 07:54:01 PM »
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  • You have to put this in context.  Pius XII stated that it is allowable "for a time" (to tie into St Paul's quote) IF the circuмstances are extreme.  AND...with permission of the couple's priest.  Very strict rules and circuмstances.  My understanding was that the couple was not allowed to decide for themselves (contrary to NFP nowadays), but the priest gave permission, so that the decision was made "prudentially" as you put it.

    NFP, in contrast to Pius XII's rhythm, is taught as a "lifestyle" which makes it extremely sinful.  All of your points are good ones and apply to NFP and its errors.

    No, Pius XII actually said --

    Quote
    for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life

    Pius XII completely misfired on this issue and caused a lot of harm as a result.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #44 on: February 03, 2018, 08:31:41 PM »
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  • Wow.  I've never heard that.  Yes, Pius XII is off his rocker.  How does one justify that idea.  Totally wrong.