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Author Topic: NFP Thought  (Read 8431 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: NFP Thought
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2018, 12:21:49 PM »
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  • In this hypothetical situation the wife is clearly committing a serious sin and damaging their relationship.  If the husband were to force the wife this would further damage the relationship to a point that it might not be reparable.  I can't see this being a good solution.  He would probably be better off fighting the danger of incontinence.  After all, single people do it all the time.

    Yes, that's a prudential consideration.  But take that out of the equation for the moment ... to get at the principle.  I'm always more interested in the principles ... and then only later their concrete application to real-life situations ... because otherwise the two can get blurred together.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #16 on: February 02, 2018, 12:51:12 PM »
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  • Yes, that's a prudential consideration.  But take that out of the equation for the moment ... to get at the principle.  I'm always more interested in the principles ... and then only later their concrete application to real-life situations ... because otherwise the two can get blurred together.
    Would you say this is a parallel situation involving the same or a similar principle:

    Let's say I lent my snow shovel to my neighbour a couple of weeks ago and he is not returning it.  I am expecting a big snowfall tonight and I am afraid my car is going to be stuck in the driveway if I can't shovel out.  My neighbour is still refusing to give me my shovel when I tell him this.  So I go over, break down his door, and take it from him by force.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #17 on: February 02, 2018, 01:23:10 PM »
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  • Quote
    Let's say I lent my snow shovel to my neighbour a couple of weeks ago (and he signed a rental contract and gave me a key to his house) and he is not returning it.  I am expecting a big snowfall tonight and I am afraid my car is going to be stuck in the driveway if I can't shovel out.  My neighbour is still refusing to give me my shovel when I tell him this.  So I go over, break down his door (enter the house with the key and contract in hand), and take it from him by force.
    Now it's a fair analogy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #18 on: February 02, 2018, 01:24:19 PM »
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  • Would you say this is a parallel situation involving the same or a similar principle:

    Let's say I lent my snow shovel to my neighbour a couple of weeks ago and he is not returning it.  I am expecting a big snowfall tonight and I am afraid my car is going to be stuck in the driveway if I can't shovel out.  My neighbour is still refusing to give me my shovel when I tell him this.  So I go over, break down his door, and take it from him by force.

    Not quite ... because I don't have rights over the neighbor's property.  I can't trespass onto his property and take my shovel.  But, obviously if I find it in a public place (say, on the sidewalk), I am entitled to take it back without consulting with him.  After marriage, the husband has the rights over his wife's body (and vice versa).

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #19 on: February 02, 2018, 01:29:28 PM »
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  • Not quite ... because I don't have rights over the neighbor's property.  I can't trespass onto his property and take my shovel.  But, obviously if I find it in a public place (say, on the sidewalk), I am entitled to take it back without consulting with him.  After marriage, the husband has the rights over his wife's body (and vice versa).
    I get it.  It helped to have Pax Vobis modify the analogy.  That illustrated what you wrote here.


    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #20 on: February 02, 2018, 01:37:01 PM »
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  • This topic his brought up a memory from the old testament.  I don't know how beneficial it will be, because it depends on the audience being an extreme.  But, often we can see the beauty of Christ's perfection better when we see the extremes that have been permitted.  The israelite rulers(priest or king, I cannot remember) permitted the israelite men at one time to take a wife to themself by force.  They either set up a festival for the occasion, or timed it to coincide with one.  And, they told the israelite men, when the virgin women went out to celebrate and dance, the men were to take them by force, run off with the virgin, then consummate the marriage if memory serves me, and then keep them as their wife.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #21 on: February 02, 2018, 01:52:10 PM »
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  • Perhaps this is a simple argument to get across my OP point.  Even if man and woman consent to get married, but there is an impediment, like the intent to not have children, the marriage is not valid.  Flip that on its head.  Even if a husband and wife consent to have sɛҳuąƖ relations, but there is an impediment, like the intent to not have children and the 99% chance it will not occur, according to its opposite, the act is not valid.  Consent of the man and woman prior to marriage did not bring validity, and consent of the man and woman after marriage does not bring validity.  In theory, this should be sound.  

    If consent of the spouses to avoid pregnancy with rythm method is morally good, then consent to get married and with the intent to avoid children should also be morally good.  But, it is disapproved by the church.  I can think of many unmarried single catholics who in the same sense meet the four conditions presented by pius xii.  What if they want company in their difficult time?  Why should they be denied such "comfort" comparable to the "comforting of the spouses" mentioned to favor observance of rythm. 

    I will tell you why marriage should be denied the single catholic who meets the pius xii four conditions.  The reason why is because God has mercy on the widow and the fatherless.  God has mercy on those single catholics who meet the four conditions.  And, that is why the church has not approved of marriage for them/those who intend not the have children.  And, that is the reason why God does not approve of Rythm.  Continence(which is for all catholics), and a baby(which is for those married), is Gods mercy to the married couple.  Both apply to the married couple because the married couple is divided.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #22 on: February 02, 2018, 02:00:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    If consent of the spouses to avoid pregnancy with rythm method is morally good
    You have to put this in context.  Pius XII stated that it is allowable "for a time" (to tie into St Paul's quote) IF the circuмstances are extreme.  AND...with permission of the couple's priest.  Very strict rules and circuмstances.  My understanding was that the couple was not allowed to decide for themselves (contrary to NFP nowadays), but the priest gave permission, so that the decision was made "prudentially" as you put it.

    NFP, in contrast to Pius XII's rhythm, is taught as a "lifestyle" which makes it extremely sinful.  All of your points are good ones and apply to NFP and its errors.


    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #23 on: February 02, 2018, 03:45:52 PM »
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  • pax vobis - I think st. paul when he said "for a time" was referring to spouses practicing continence, which means avoiding sex entirely.  And, that it was not for spouses to "for a time" have sex with the intent of avoiding children with 99% accuracy.  If that is the case, then "for a time" unmarried catholics can "comfort" themselves and mirror the "comforting" occurring in catholic marriages.  If it is true that "for a time" we can do this as pius xii says, then "for a time" unmarried catholics can fornicate.  It is that simple.  But, that is not the case.  So, we can not "for a time" practice pius xii rythm.  

    Lastly, I have a point to make about how it must have the approval of ones priest.  This is faulty in the sense that a priest does not have the fullness of the sacrament of orders.  It would have to be approval of a bishop, which obviously means for each case.  But, it is not.  Because, a bishop, a successor of the apostles, would never allow for such foolish measures and in turn, sin.  It is for one, impractical to an extreme, and the faith is practical.  And, two, simple ones like myself would learn about these proceedings and would have to publicly reject it and correct the bishop, which would be successful.  The pope has always tried underhand measures against the bishops, and this is in harmony with it.  "Keep it quite, keep it in the confessional".  The serpent is the most cunning of all creatures.  The bishops of the catholic church have been marginalized so much over the centuries, that it is only when they all become heretics that the pope grants them their God given rights.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #24 on: February 02, 2018, 04:03:49 PM »
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  • Quote
    pax vobis - I think st. paul when he said "for a time" was referring to spouses practicing continence, which means avoiding sex entirely.  And, that it was not for spouses to "for a time" have sex with the intent of avoiding children with 99% accuracy.
    I agree.  Wasn't arguing that, just pointing out that Pius XII's rhythm was not a lifestyle but a particular response to a very particular situation of short duration (i.e. "for a time).  Not the best point; my apologies.

    Quote
    If it is true that "for a time" we can do this as pius xii says, then "for a time" unmarried catholics can fornicate.  It is that simple.  But, that is not the case.  So, we can not "for a time" practice pius xii rythm.
    Not necessarily apples-apples comparison.  Fornication is against the natural law; NFP would be against the natural law because it's a 'lifestyle'; the rhythm is not, in theory.

    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #25 on: February 02, 2018, 05:59:01 PM »
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  • Pax vobis - I am pretty sure fornication is the right word.  Because, adultery is only when sɛҳuąƖ misbehavior occurs with someone else's spouse.  I don't think adultery is the word for when two unmarried people have what you might call "proper" intercourse.   
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Matto

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #26 on: February 02, 2018, 07:40:37 PM »
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  • I think the NFP debate is an interesting one. I do not understand it very well so I do not judge whether or not it is okay or understand the reasons. But I have a thought. It was a shame that Onan didn't know about NFP. If he had he could have still had relations and just used NFP instead of spilling his seed on the ground. If Onan had used NFP instead of spilling his seed do you think God would have still struck him dead and sent him straight to hell?
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #27 on: February 02, 2018, 08:24:33 PM »
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  • "Questions" like that are why you have a Reputation: +2846/-83. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline PG

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #28 on: February 02, 2018, 09:06:56 PM »
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  • "Questions" like that are why you have a Reputation: +2846/-83.
    Philosophy indulges in questions, theology indulges in answers.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Fanny

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    Re: NFP Thought
    « Reply #29 on: February 02, 2018, 09:23:30 PM »
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  • Seems to me there ARE times when a husband, forcing himself on his spouse, would be considered rape and I think it happens more frequently than you all want to believe:

    There can, however, be good reasons that excuse a husband or wife from rendering this marriage debt, such as adultery of the other spouse, or unreasonable demands (e.g. frequency, intoxication) or grave danger to health or life (e.g. by the possible communication of infectious diseases), or a husband who refuses to perform his duty of supporting his family (Jone, Moral Theology, pp. 557 & 558 ).