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Author Topic: NFP: grave sin yet promoted by Paul VI  (Read 12697 times)

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Re: NFP: grave sin yet promoted by Paul VI
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2023, 05:33:31 PM »
the anatomy and physiology is Gods.  the attitude is where it is.  NFP is what the world called it, with their attitudes and behavior where things may go wrong.  NFP is not sinful, it is the people who sin and it is God who made us. What God has made is His design and Thank you. Keep a prayerful life of the attitudes.

For serious reasons: example:  A mother gives birth prematurely.  Baby can not be breast fed, it would be too much on the baby's energy.  Will end up with bottle and premie nipple.  Because the mother has no baby at the breast, the brain will know this and the fertility will return, soon.  therefore this would be a serious reason.  How long does a couple decided to incorporate what God has given for signs to resume?  This couple have the desires for more children, but for this time, it would be best to wait, and still give each other their love.

Re: NFP: grave sin yet promoted by Paul VI
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2023, 07:36:21 PM »
You feel free to judge Humane Vitae is wrong but not that the person who promulgated it has no authority? Sorry to break it to ya, but you're already implying he's not the pope by rejecting his teaching authority.

It is not that I "feel free to judge Humanae Vitae as wrong" but that I have real concerns with the apparent contradiction; which I admit I do not have enough knowledge on the subject to resolve myself. I do not know that Humane Vitae is wrong, that is why I made this thread. To see how (or if) we can justify the words of a supposedly valid text promulgated by a supposedly validly elected Pope.


On the contrary, if the couple simply "winged-it," not taking any preparatory, preventative actions before having sex, but just avoided sex on what their common sense told them might be infertile days, then they would not sin, in "deed," because their "inaction" is not an "action," and so, would not be covered under the restriction quoted above.

But Humanae Vitae (Section 16) also teaches that any desire ("thought") to have sex while at the same time wishing to avoid pregnancy requires that the couple have this desire for "well-grounded" reasons, and that their desire to avoid a pregnancy in that particular sɛҳuąƖ act is not a permanent desire, but rather only a temporary desire to "space births" because of some serious physical or psychological reason which is expected to pass.

So, in a roundabout and somewhat vague way, Humanae Vitae does uphold the traditional teaching.

I have not heard this argument before and on paper it seems good; but you are using a single text to justify itself -- that text being a problematic one as we have seen in my original post. What would be more helpful is comparing Humane Vitae to Casti Connubii and showing how the texts do not conflict. I agree somewhat with the first point quoted. There is no positive duty on behalf of a couple to ensure they ARE performing the marital deed ONLY on days in which the wife IS fertile.

The problem seems to lay in their intention, which is where I have a problem with what you said. You stated: "...[if they] avoided sex on what their common sense told them might be infertile days, then they would not sin." This is an issue. They are intentionally trying not to have a baby. They are subordinating the primary end of the marital act to the secondary ends.

As to the second paragraph, I do not see how a sin against the natural law can be justified by as long as it is not "permanent" or "regular". If, in fact, the primary end of the marital act is subordinated to any other end, then it is a done deal. From Casti Connubii for reference:

"For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved." - Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii


Offline Angelus

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Re: NFP: grave sin yet promoted by Paul VI
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2023, 08:06:08 PM »
It is not that I "feel free to judge Humanae Vitae as wrong" but that I have real concerns with the apparent contradiction; which I admit I do not have enough knowledge on the subject to resolve myself. I do not know that Humane Vitae is wrong, that is why I made this thread. To see how (or if) we can justify the words of a supposedly valid text promulgated by a supposedly validly elected Pope.


I have not heard this argument before and on paper it seems good; but you are using a single text to justify itself -- that text being a problematic one as we have seen in my original post. What would be more helpful is comparing Humane Vitae to Casti Connubii and showing how the texts do not conflict. I agree somewhat with the first point quoted. There is no positive duty on behalf of a couple to ensure they ARE performing the marital deed ONLY on days in which the wife IS fertile.

The problem seems to lay in their intention, which is where I have a problem with what you said. You stated: "...[if they] avoided sex on what their common sense told them might be infertile days, then they would not sin." This is an issue. They are intentionally trying not to have a baby. They are subordinating the primary end of the marital act to the secondary ends.

As to the second paragraph, I do not see how a sin against the natural law can be justified by as long as it is not "permanent" or "regular". If, in fact, the primary end of the marital act is subordinated to any other end, then it is a done deal. From Casti Connubii for reference:

"For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved." - Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii

There are two main points that need to be separated:

1. Sin of Deed/Action: Positively "acting" in such a way as to prevent conception is always sinful. That can never be justified, even for, so called, "well-founded reasons." But simply abstaining from the sɛҳuąƖ act is not a positive "action." It is "inaction. So "inaction," by its nature, can never be a sin of "deed" or action. This is related to the "actions" taken to implement the techniques of NFP to avoid conception. Never allowed.

2. Sin of Thought/Intention:  Assuming that the couple did not resort to positive "actions," one must still consider their "intentions" driving their desire to abstain from the sɛҳuąƖ act during what might be, by common sense, a fertile period. If their "intention" is to never have any more children, then that "intention," to avoid sex during a fertile period, is sinful. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want the pleasure of sex without the responsibility of children. However, the Church has consistently said there are exceptions in certain cases, when grave reasons exist, that a couple may, temporarily, resort to the periods of natural infertility.

For more background on the exceptional cases, look at this:

https://isidore.co/misc/Res%20pro%20Deo/TheCatholicArchive_OCRed/OCR_layer_only/The%20%E2%80%9CRhythm%E2%80%9D%20in%20Marriage%20and%20Christian%20Morality,%20N.%20Orville%20Giese,%20S.T.D.,%201944_OCR.pdf

Online Ladislaus

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Re: NFP: grave sin yet promoted by Paul VI
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2023, 09:14:33 PM »
NFP, as it is usually taught and practiced today, is not authorized in Humane Vitae.

Have you read it?  Because HV certainly does endorse NFP as practiced today ... in spades.  Pius XII was more reserved, but Montini was promoting it as Catholic Birth Control.

Online Ladislaus

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Re: NFP: grave sin yet promoted by Paul VI
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2023, 09:16:03 PM »
"Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sɛҳuąƖ intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means." (Section 14)

So, if the couple is taking any "action," such as using thermometers and comparing the readings of the thermometers to a scientifically-determined fertility table, and the couple takes such actions with the specific intention to prevent procreation, then the couple has violated the law of the Church, according to Humanae Vitae.

:facepalm: ... not, that's not what the section means.