Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV  (Read 19763 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mobius

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 157
  • Reputation: +2/-1
  • Gender: Male
NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
« on: November 05, 2013, 10:19:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What is the position of CMRI and SSPX and SSPV on NFP? Where do they officially approve this? The Sources?


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 07:40:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • CMRI go by Pius the XII.  Serious reason to wait. postpone or stop.


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4452
    • Reputation: +5061/-436
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 08:47:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I believe all three of these groups believe what Pius XII taught in his address to the Italian midwives.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline parentsfortruth

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3821
    • Reputation: +2664/-26
    • Gender: Female
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 09:10:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even in the "traditional circles," this practice is very, very much abused, IMO.

    It's not my place to know people's private affairs, nor do I even want to, but I probably know one single person (MAYBE) that has a legitimate "serious" reason to use it.

    It's statistically impossible that the 5-6 people I know that are using it, are actually using it legitimately. This, of course, includes novus ordo catholics, and the practice is not limited to "serious reasons" but "social responsibility," and "spacing."

    I think people should see the ruse by now, and know where it's all coming from. This was a slick way for the eugenicists (read: Satan) to try to control the Catholic population, under the convenient veil of "spacing" and "planning your family." There are very few older people that were unfortunate followers of this practice, who have lived to regret it.

    "If you want to hear God laugh, tell Him your plans."

    People should abandon themselves to Divine Providence.

    Consider the prophet Jerimias:

    Jerimias 1:5

    "Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations."
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Ambrose

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3447
    • Reputation: +2429/-13
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 10:19:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • All Catholics must believe Pope Pius XII's teaching under pain of serious sin.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41868
    • Reputation: +23920/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #5 on: November 07, 2013, 08:37:55 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, an allocution to midwives probably has questionable authority behind it (i.e. was it ex cathedra?).

    NFP as such (along the lines of what parentsfortruth wrote), as "Family Planning" is an abomination.  Notice the euphemism of "Family Planning" as opposed to "Birth Control".  If it's "Artificial" then it's "Birth Control"; if "Natural" then it's euphemistically referred to as "Family Planning".

    I would say that when used generally to control, space, plan pregnancies, etc. the two should be referred to as "Artificial Birth Control" and "Natural Birth Control".  In most cases, they're formally the same thing, the difference being that natural abstinence is not intrinsically evil but receives its moral quality from the formal intent.

    In most cases, however, if the situation is SO grave that one cannot get pregnant, then just plain abstinence is the right thing to do, since the NFP method is anything but foolproof.  But, as parentsfortruth mentioned, probably 1 in 10,000 practioners of NFP have sufficiently grave reason to do what they're doing.  Most of them are using as a Birth Control alternative.  In fact, the NO pushes it that way, and increasingly so do "Traditional" priests.

    I would disagree with Pius XII's allocution to the midwives, just as I disagree with his promotion of Bugnini in various liturgical experimentations (and with some of the Holy Week liturgical changes).  In many ways, Pius XII set the stage for Vatican II I'm afraid ... he greased the skids.

    In Casti Conubii, Pius XI taught that the secondary ends of marriage could never subvert the primary ends.  In trying to exclude the primary end while engaging in the secondry end, you're doing exactly that.

    So ... absolutely no to NFP.

    It was one of the heretical novelties of Vatican II to make the primary and secondary ends of marriage co-equal primary ends.  And, as in many other areas, Pius XII was the precursor to this.

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #6 on: November 07, 2013, 01:16:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Well, an allocution to midwives probably has questionable authority behind it (i.e. was it ex cathedra?).

    NFP as such (along the lines of what parentsfortruth wrote), as "Family Planning" is an abomination.  Notice the euphemism of "Family Planning" as opposed to "Birth Control".  If it's "Artificial" then it's "Birth Control"; if "Natural" then it's euphemistically referred to as "Family Planning".

    I would say that when used generally to control, space, plan pregnancies, etc. the two should be referred to as "Artificial Birth Control" and "Natural Birth Control".  In most cases, they're formally the same thing, the difference being that natural abstinence is not intrinsically evil but receives its moral quality from the formal intent.

    In most cases, however, if the situation is SO grave that one cannot get pregnant, then just plain abstinence is the right thing to do, since the NFP method is anything but foolproof.  But, as parentsfortruth mentioned, probably 1 in 10,000 practioners of NFP have sufficiently grave reason to do what they're doing.  Most of them are using as a Birth Control alternative.  In fact, the NO pushes it that way, and increasingly so do "Traditional" priests.

    I would disagree with Pius XII's allocution to the midwives, just as I disagree with his promotion of Bugnini in various liturgical experimentations (and with some of the Holy Week liturgical changes).  In many ways, Pius XII set the stage for Vatican II I'm afraid ... he greased the skids.

    In Casti Conubii, Pius XI taught that the secondary ends of marriage could never subvert the primary ends.  In trying to exclude the primary end while engaging in the secondry end, you're doing exactly that.

    So ... absolutely no to NFP.

    I believe Fenton teaches that the allocution to midwives was put in the Acta and is an authoritative docuмent that must be accepted.  I trust Father Fenton on that.  Of course we have to properly understand what the Pope taught and what he did not teach in that allocution.  

    It was one of the heretical novelties of Vatican II to make the primary and secondary ends of marriage co-equal primary ends.  And, as in many other areas, Pius XII was the precursor to this.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #7 on: November 07, 2013, 01:19:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How would one explain that the design of the women gives her an outward sign to fertility?  It is God made and designed, and that in itself is not evil, or of sin.  Sin is in the heart of the person and not what God has designed.


    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #8 on: November 07, 2013, 01:32:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Well, an allocution to midwives probably has questionable authority behind it (i.e. was it ex cathedra?).

    NFP as such (along the lines of what parentsfortruth wrote), as "Family Planning" is an abomination.  Notice the euphemism of "Family Planning" as opposed to "Birth Control".  If it's "Artificial" then it's "Birth Control"; if "Natural" then it's euphemistically referred to as "Family Planning".

    I would say that when used generally to control, space, plan pregnancies, etc. the two should be referred to as "Artificial Birth Control" and "Natural Birth Control".  In most cases, they're formally the same thing, the difference being that natural abstinence is not intrinsically evil but receives its moral quality from the formal intent.

    In most cases, however, if the situation is SO grave that one cannot get pregnant, then just plain abstinence is the right thing to do, since the NFP method is anything but foolproof.  But, as parentsfortruth mentioned, probably 1 in 10,000 practioners of NFP have sufficiently grave reason to do what they're doing.  Most of them are using as a Birth Control alternative.  In fact, the NO pushes it that way, and increasingly so do "Traditional" priests.

    I would disagree with Pius XII's allocution to the midwives, just as I disagree with his promotion of Bugnini in various liturgical experimentations (and with some of the Holy Week liturgical changes).  In many ways, Pius XII set the stage for Vatican II I'm afraid ... he greased the skids.

    In Casti Conubii, Pius XI taught that the secondary ends of marriage could never subvert the primary ends.  In trying to exclude the primary end while engaging in the secondry end, you're doing exactly that.

    So ... absolutely no to NFP.

    It was one of the heretical novelties of Vatican II to make the primary and secondary ends of marriage co-equal primary ends.  And, as in many other areas, Pius XII was the precursor to this.


    Interesting comments about Puis XII though.  But on this site they can get you  :heretic: as it seems most are under the impression that a valid Pope can do no wrong, nothing imprudent.  Avoid doing things when he shouldn't do things when he should not.  It is possible for a valid Pope to lack prudence, to be cowardly or any number of things.  I am not saying that Puis XII was either imprudent or cowardly but interesting things happened towards the end of his pontificate.  I am prepared for  :heretic: over that comment and will take it like a good Catholic.  Saint Paul rebuked Peter you know and I'm pretty sure he was a valid Pope.  But some people don't want to get the point.  

    You mentioned one in 10,000 do not use NFP for the proper reasons but that is an admittal [perhaps unintentional] that there is a proper reason for it.  

    If you are really serious about getting to the bottom of the NFP issue check out the following:

    http://christorchaos.com/Forty-ThreeYearsAfterHumanaeVitae.html

    He talks about how imprimatered books in the 20th are not 100% error free and if that is the only place you go to get your theology you can be on shaky ground.  There was an agenda within the Church to undermine the authentic teaching of the Church on marriage before the 1960's, but Pius XII allocution to the midwives was not part of that erroneous teaching.  Does that mean NFP is okay?  Ever?  For any reason?  Read the link above and below:

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/family/natural.htm


     
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ambrose

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3447
    • Reputation: +2429/-13
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #9 on: November 07, 2013, 01:48:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ladislaus wrote:

    Quote
    Well, an allocution to midwives probably has questionable authority behind it (i.e. was it ex cathedra?).  


    The Address of Pope Pius XII to the midwives was published in the Acta, and by that this private speech was made into universal teaching, and by that part of the Pope's ordinary magisterium.

    I would urge you to read this:  http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=28198#p0. I just posted it on this forum for your convenience and anyone else following this discussion.

    Quote
    NFP as such (along the lines of what parentsfortruth wrote), as "Family Planning" is an abomination.  Notice the euphemism of "Family Planning" as opposed to "Birth Control".  If it's "Artificial" then it's "Birth Control"; if "Natural" then it's euphemistically referred to as "Family Planning".


    Pope Pius XII never used the term, "Natural Family Planning," "NFP," so this term must not be connected to him.  The Pope never taught Catholics to plan their families.

    Quote
    In most cases, however, if the situation is SO grave that one cannot get pregnant, then just plain abstinence is the right thing to do, since the NFP method is anything but foolproof.  But, as parentsfortruth mentioned, probably 1 in 10,000 practioners of NFP have sufficiently grave reason to do what they're doing.  Most of them are using as a Birth Control alternative.  In fact, the NO pushes it that way, and increasingly so do "Traditional" priests.


    An abuse of a teaching, is not proof that the teaching is not true.  I would not attempt to guess at how many may abuse this teaching, as such knowledge is generally impossible to obtain without seeing into the consciences of men.

    Quote
    I would disagree with Pius XII's allocution to the midwives, just as I disagree with his promotion of Bugnini in various liturgical experimentations (and with some of the Holy Week liturgical changes).


    To refuse to assent to the pope's non-infallible papal teaching on matters of Faith and morals given to the universal Church is a mortal sin.  If you will not accept this, that is up to you, but do you really want to go to Hell over this?

    Regarding Bugnini, he was an underling at the time of Pius XII.  It was the Pope's decision to make reforms to the liturgy, and his alone.  The successor of St. Peter had the power to revise, modify and reform the liturgy.  He has been given the authority and the commission to bind and to loosen, his laws are bound on earth and in Heaven.

    Quote
    In many ways, Pius XII set the stage for Vatican II I'm afraid ... he greased the skids.


    It is painful for me to read a Catholic write with such contempt about such a great and admirable Pontiff.

    Pius XII was like a fearless general surrounded by enemies from within and without who with his loyal commanders and soldiers held back the great evil that was pounding against the gates of the Church.  

    It may be worthwhile and profitable to read this beautiful tribute to Pope Pius XII from one that was one of his loyal soldiers in the Church Militant at the time:  Here

    Quote
    It was one of the heretical novelties of Vatican II to make the primary and secondary ends of marriage co-equal primary ends.  And, as in many other areas, Pius XII was the precursor to this.


    I am not defending Vatican II.  It is unjust to Pope Pius XII to connect him and his orthodoxy to heresies, errors, and evil that came after he was dead, and had no power to stop.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #10 on: November 07, 2013, 02:22:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here is an introduction to Tom's article, He also mentions the term "NFP" was never used in the Catholic Church but only in the conciliar Church which is in fact different than the Catholic Church [For the record I believe Pius XII was good willed and courageous but I won't lump him in those who could be considered the best Popes of all time.  So much we don't know that would both put him in a negative or positive light.  I'm not sure if a Pontiff ever had more negative stuff going on beneath him, enemies within than Pius XII:

    http://christorchaos.com/Forty-ThreeYearsAfterHumanaeVitae.html

    Today, on which we observe the Feast of Saint James the Greater, a son of Zebedee and Salome, who was present at the foot of the Holy Cross with her other son, Saint John the Evangelist, is the forty-third anniversary of the issuance of Humanae Vitae by Giovanni Montini/Paul VI.

    Far from being an "orthodox" statement of the Catholic Faith, Humanae Vitae was a revolutionary docuмent that inverted the ends of marriage, begetting, if you will, the cottage industry that is known today as "natural family planning," something that was not taught at any time in the history of the Catholic Church, no, not even by Pope Pius XII in his October 29, 1951, Address to Midwives on the Nature of Their Profession.

    The purpose of this study, which has taken up a considerable amount of time in the last few weeks and has been vetted rather extensively by numerous individuals, including several priests, has several parts:

    First, to demonstrate that the mindset of "family planning" is alien to the Catholic Faith.

    Second, to study the meaning of Pope Pius XII's 1951 address from a review of the pertinent passages therein and from a consideration of how that was considered by some of commentaries made about it in the 1950s, focusing on two in particular.

    Third, an examination of the revolutionary nature of Humanae Vitae and its reliance upon the personalist philosophy of Dietrich von Hildebrand and Father Herbert Doms, explaining how that philosophy had been condemned by the Holy Office in 1944, a condemnation that was reiterated by Pope Pius XII in his Address to Midwives on the Nature of Their Profession.

    Fourth, an exploration of how the adversary used Humanae Vitae to propagate a belief in "family planning" while at the same time rallying "conservative" and "traditionally-minded" Catholics around the "pope" as he was attacked by "dissenters" who had been waiting for him to endorse contraception.

    Fifth, a discussion of how it is not "impossible" for couples to observe complete marital abstinence, drawing from the very words of Pope Pius XII's 1951 address, in certain situations where this might be necessary or advisable.

    What is outside of the scope of this study, which has gone through many revisions as it has undergone the vetting process, is any discussion of the issue of moral culpability on the part of those who have advised on this matter that they can licitly practice what is called "natural family planning." Although I completed all of the seminary coursework in moral theology necessary for priestly ordination, I am neither a pastor of souls or a moral theologian. Father Gerard Rusak of the Society of Saint Pius X has written what I believe to be a fine explication of the moral fault involved in the use of the rhythm method without the presence of the grave conditions outlined by Pope Pius XII in 1951 (see Natural Family Planning) that I found online Saturday evening. It is simply not the purpose of my study to delve into the matter as Catholics must rely upon their shepherds to guide them.

    The purpose of this study can be summarized as follows: to explain that the term "natural family planning" has no relationship to anything that has ever been taught by the Catholic Church at any point in her history.

    We can become so used to the proliferation of certain terms, my good and very few readers, that it is very easy to unthinkingly use the adversary's language in an effort to describe the teaching of the Catholic Church. We must avoid doing so. Precision of language is vital. We must not make the tragic mistake of adding the word "natural" to the words "family planning" as this cedes the linguistic "high ground" to the whole concept of the "family planning" movement that began in earnest in 1915 with the establishment of the National Birth Control League by Mary Coffin Ware Dennett and, of course, in 1917 under Margaret Sanger and her Birth Control Review, which became the foundation in 1921 of the American Birth Control League, the forerunner of what is known today as Planned Parenthood. Much confusion and unnecessary conflict can be generated by a imprecision of language.

    One of those who reviewed this study is the Director of the U.S. Coalition for Life, Mrs. Randy Engel, one of the greatest and most diligent researchers of our time. Mrs. Engel was kind enough to offer the following comments for publication on this site:

        Having spent the last six months working on a similar article on the ill-fated Vatican Birth Control Commission of 1963-1966, I was very happy to see this well-docuмented report on how the very concept of so-called “natural family planning,” much less its practice, is alien to traditional Catholicism.  

        In any war, words are weapons. By institutionalizing the term “NFP” the post-Conciliar Church has shot itself in the foot… actually both feet. “Family planning” is an anti-life term which means that a woman has the power to decide how many children a woman shall have and when she shall have them …. Never mind that God is the Lord and Giver of Life. Its incorporation in the term “natural family planning” has been huge propaganda plus for the enemies of God.  

        Nature does indeed have a plan for human procreation but it is of a different species than “NFP.” Nature favors youth in the matter of childbearing. The Church has, in the past, encouraged young large families using breastfeeding as a natural spacer. The first order of business of a married couple is to establish one’s fertility, not to practice family limitation or postpone having a child. This is absolutely necessary given the increase in sterility of married couples. Cana and pre-Cana classes need to stress these points …. Not promote “NFP” as a “way of life.”  

        Dr. Tom Droleskey has done a positive service for the Church with this scholarly work. Randy Engel, Director, U.S. Coalition for Life.

         

    I thank Mrs. Engel for her comments, expressing my gratitude to her for all of the wonderful work she has done in behalf of Catholic truth on matters of family life and education. I look forward to the publication of her own commentary.

    Another reviewer who has offered comments for publication is the pastor of Saint Jude Shrine in Stafford, Texas, Father Louis Campbell, who was ordained as a member of the Order of Saint Augustine in Nova Scotia, Canada, on September 3, 1961 before leaving in the 1990s to teach at Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, first in Elmhurst, Pennsylvania, and then in Denton, Nebraska, consequently becoming convinced that Karol Wojtyla/John Paul II was not a true and legitimate Successor of Saint Peter. He has been in Texas for the past ten years, and we have always enjoyed assisting at his offerings of Holy Mass. Here are Father Campbell's remarks:

        You have done us all a great service in demonstrating very clearly that we must return to the sound teachings of Pope Pius XII concerning the true ends of marriage. The deception and confusion caused by the Margaret Sangers and the false teachers of the ‘Vatican II’ Revolution have taken their toll, even among those who claim to hold to the Church’s traditional teachings. We have yet to see the full consequences of their evil plotting.

         

        The countries of Europe have sealed their doom because of the virtually universal use of contraception and ‘family planning’ in the European countries. I have read that their birthrates have declined beyond the point of no return, so that they will be unable to sustain their languages and cultures, and such vestiges of Christianity that still remain. Strangers speaking different languages, and of a culture and religion foreign to Europe are already invading, and there will be a violent struggle. Unless God sees fit to intervene European civilization is about to fall. The Vatican and many beloved Christian churches and shrines of Europe will be destroyed.

         

        Unfortunately, we must say the same for the United States and Canada. They will not be able to remain as they are. There will be invasions, violence and bƖσσdshɛd, and our beloved countries will never be the same again. May God protect us!

         

        I have to admit that I have not totally escaped the general confusion that still affects the whole Novus Ordo scene. I was a part of it, so I took for granted much of its erroneous thinking and teaching. But, thanks be to God, I returned to the Traditional Latin Mass, or at least a facsimile of in the Fraternity of St. Peter for five years, until ten years ago I was invited down to St. Jude’s Shrine. And I have come back to the more traditional teachings of the true Church concerning marriage. When I prepare young couples for marriage I do teach them that God decides how few or how many children they will have, as well as whatever else is necessary for their marriage.

         

    Father Campbell, whose weekly sermons are gems of the Faith, had the humility to recognize that he had been drawn into the erroneous thinking and teaching of the counterfeit church of conciliarism. We must pray for that same humility to admit whenever we have permeated the slogans of the day to convince us to attach an anti-family life slogan such as "natural family planning" to the teaching of the Catholic Church. As one who used this term for a long term without seeing the dangers inherent in it (or the method itself--out of "loyalty" to Paul VI, you understand), I am grateful for the prayers and instructions of others who corrected my own quite erroneous ways.

     

    This study is only that, a study. Nothing else It is subject to whatever criticism or comment that readers desire to offer. I will not, however, have time to respond to much in the way of correspondence. I will, though, write a follow-up article on whatever reaction is generated (do you think there will be any?) when a sufficient amount of time has passed (and when I have recovered from the writing of this piece!).

     

    Although I stated in the text of the current article that there would be a follow-up article on the Modernist trends at work in the Catholic Church in the United States of America prior to the "Second" Vatican Council by tomorrow, Tuesday, the Feast of Saint Anne, I am exhausted. I am going to take a few days off, if you don't mind.

     

    Let us pray an extra Rosary today, the Feast of Saint James the Greater, for Holy Mother Church in this time of apostasy and betrayal, remembering also the needs and intentions of our fellow Catholics no matter they are to be found in the vast expanse of the ecclesiastical divide as we seek by our Rosaries and sacrifices and voluntary penances to build up the Mystical Body of Christ on earth, the Church Militant, pledging our hearts as always to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary.

    Our Lady of the Rosary, pray for us.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Nishant

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2126
    • Reputation: +0/-6
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #11 on: November 07, 2013, 02:32:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, NFP is not intrinsically evil. It would be evil when grave reasons are lacking and, in accordance with established principles of moral theology, it falls to priests and confessors to judge that in individual cases.

    Pope Pius XII's teaching on the matter is clear. But Fr. Brian hαɾɾιson provides a docuмentation of official responses from Rome to this question from long before that,

    Quote
    The first time Rome spoke on the matter was as long ago as 1853, when the Sacred Penitentiary answered a dubium (a formal request for an official clarification) submitted by the Bishop of Amiens, France. He asked, "Should those spouses be reprehended who make use of marriage only on those days when (in the opinion of some doctors) conception is impossible?" The Vatican reply was, "After mature examination, we have decided that such spouses should not be disturbed [or disquieted], provided they do nothing that impedes generation"6

    The next time the issue was raised was in 1880, when the Sacred Penitentiary on June 16 of that year issued a more general response (i.e., not directed just to an individual bishop). This time the Vatican goes further: not only does it instruct confessors not to "disquiet" or "disturb" married couples who are already practising periodic continence; it even authorizes the confessor to take the initiative in positively suggesting that method, with due caution, to couples who may not yet be aware of it, and who, in his prudent judgment, are otherwise likely to keep on practising the "detestable crime" of onanism.

    One could not ask for a more obvious and explicit proof that already, more than eighty years before Vatican II, the Holy See saw a great moral difference between NFP (as we now call it) and contraceptive methods (which Catholic moralists then referred to globally as 'onanism' of different types). The precise question posed was this: "Whether it is licit to make use of marriage only on those days when it is more difficult for conception to occur?" The response is: "Spouses using the aforesaid method are not to be disturbed; and a confessor may, with due caution, suggest this proposal to spouses, if his other attempts to lead them away from the detestable crime of onanism have proved fruitless."8

    This time the ruling, which simply referred back to the same dicastery's previous and positive response of half a century earlier, was eventually made public in the Roman docuмentary journal Texta et Docuмenta, series theologica (vol. 25 [1942], p. 95). The decision reads as follows (my translation):

    "Regarding the Exclusive Use of the Infertile Period

    "Qu. Whether the practice is licit in itself by which spouses who, for just and grave causes, wish to avoid offspring in a morally upright way, abstain from the use of marriage – by mutual consent and with upright motives – except on those days which, according to certain recent [medical] theories, conception is impossible for natural reasons.

    "Resp. Provided for by the Response of the Sacred Penitentiary of June 16, 1880."9

    After referring to the recent decision of the Anglicans to permit contraception (though without mentioning them by name), Pius XI declares:

    The Catholic Church, to whom God has entrusted the defense of the integrity and the purity of morals, standing erect in the midst of the moral ruin which surrounds her, in order that she may preserve the chastity of the nuptial union from being defiled by this foul stain, raises her voice in token of her divine ambassadorship and through Our mouth proclaims anew: any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately deprived of its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin.13

    ...

    10. For instance, Heribert Jone, Moral Theology (1st edition 1929), section 760; J. Montánchez (op. cit., 1946), p. 654; F. De Larraga, O.P., Prontuario de Teología Moral, (Madrid & Buenos Aires, 1950), p. 449-450, citing the 1880 Vatican decision; A. Tanquerey, Brevior Synopsis Theologiae Moralis et Pastoralis (Paris, Desclée, 1933), p. 653.

    The great Fr. Adolphus Tanquerey was the author of some of the most widely used and universally approved theological textbooks of the early 20th century. So it is particularly significant that he, less than three years after the promulgation of CC, could write the following (on the page cited above).

    After explaining the mortally sinful character of onanism ('withdrawal', condoms, etc.), Tanquerey asserts (with emphasis added here): "Ab onanismo omnino differt praxis copulam solummodo iis temporibus quibus conceptio raro accidit. . . . Talis agendi ratio non est peccaminosa ex S. Paenitentiaria (16 Jun. 1880)". Translation: "Totally different from onanism is the practice of having conjugal relations only at those times when conception rarely occurs. . . . Such a practice is not sinful, according to the Sacred Penitentiary (June 16, 1880)."

    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1158/-863
    • Gender: Male
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #12 on: November 07, 2013, 02:38:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here is a quote from Tom's article:

    Quote
    However, it is a total misreading of Pope Pius XII's October 29, 1951, Address to Midwives on the Nature of Their Profession to assert that he endorsed what is called today "natural family planning."

    He did not.

    Our last true Holy Father listed a series of specific conditions in which it was permissible, although never mandatory, for married couples to limit the use of the gift proper to the married state to a woman's monthly periods of infertility. He did not endorse the indiscriminate use of the rhythm method, less yet "mandated" its teaching. He himself referred to those conditions in a later address, given just weeks before his death on October 9, 1958, as "exceptional." Something that is exceptional can never be considered the norm.


    We tend to come up with excuses today and not trust in the providence of God.  We are not obliged to save up for college, we are merely obligated to educate our children properly and sufficiently and provide food, clothes and shelter for them.  

    So much we pay for that we don't need, such as cable, extra cars, vacations, special cloths, visits to the beauty shop, expensive restaurants.  We don't need all that.  God provides for our necessities.  If we lack financial, physical or spiritual capabilities and know this before getting married we should realize we are not called to marriage.

    Have children as God gives them to you is the Catholic way.  Detach yourself from materiel goods and allurements.  You do not have to be a millionaire to have children as God gives them to you, just frugal, resourceful and prayerful.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10057
    • Reputation: +5252/-916
    • Gender: Female
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #13 on: November 07, 2013, 03:20:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Nishant
    No, NFP is not intrinsically evil. It would be evil when grave reasons are lacking and, in accordance with established principles of moral theology, it falls to priests and confessors to judge that in individual cases.




    Judgment by Vatican II priests? In that case, me thinks the verdict's still out then.

    Basically, my limited understanding on this topic is that the Church has never condemned periodic continence for grave reasons. However, if anyone thinks that this hasn't changed post-Vatican II I've got a bridge to sell them. Couples using NFP is like the number of annulments these days: way over-approved.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3849/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    NFP CMRI SSPX SSPV
    « Reply #14 on: November 07, 2013, 03:21:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ambrose

    All Catholics must believe Pope Pius XII's teaching under pain of serious sin.

    I know that some people like the Dimond brothers think Pope Pius XII's teaching contradicts the teaching of Pope Pius XI. In that case, if they listen to you they are rejecting Pope Pius XI's teaching.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.