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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 9952 times)

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #100 on: March 20, 2021, 08:37:06 AM »
Honestly, I've been busy and haven't been able to fully follow this thread, but I want to ask Ladislaus one question.

If you can be justified but not saved by implicit faith, what happens if you die justified  but without water baptism?

If your answer is that theoretically you'd go to heaven, but God won't ever actually let that happen, OK.  That seems somewhat speculative moreso than definitive, but I certainly don't know that it ever happens.

Or is your answer that such people would end up in Limbo?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #101 on: March 20, 2021, 09:38:34 AM »
Honestly, I've been busy and haven't been able to fully follow this thread, but I want to ask Ladislaus one question.

If you can be justified but not saved by implicit faith, what happens if you die justified  but without water baptism?

If your answer is that theoretically you'd go to heaven, but God won't ever actually let that happen, OK.  That seems somewhat speculative moreso than definitive, but I certainly don't know that it ever happens.

Or is your answer that such people would end up in Limbo?

I would say Limbo. Clearly the theologians cited by De Lugo distinguished between justification and salvation (as Father Feeney did), but I don't recall or haven't read what they say about someone who would hypothetically die justified but not saved.

So my answer is Limbo.  Father Feeney simply answered "I don't know."  I am unaware of whether these other theologians dealt with the question at all.


Offline Stubborn

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #102 on: March 20, 2021, 11:18:37 AM »
I would say Limbo. Clearly the theologians cited by De Lugo distinguished between justification and salvation (as Father Feeney did), but I don't recall or haven't read what they say about someone who would hypothetically die justified but not saved.

So my answer is Limbo.  Father Feeney simply answered "I don't know."  I am unaware of whether these other theologians dealt with the question at all.
Fr. Feeney from Bread of Life:

...He will then say, "If you die in the state of justification, without yet being baptized, are you not saved?"
You must answer him, "No, you are not. 'That is your reasoning in the matter. That is not Christ's statement."

And if he persists in saying, "Well, where does one go who dies in the state of justification which has been achieved without Baptism?"—insist that he does not go to Heaven.

And if he goes on to yell at you angrily, "Where are you going to send him—to Hell?", say: "No, I am not going to send him to
Hell because I am not the Judge of the living and the dead. I am going to say what Christ said, ‘He cannot go into Heaven unless he is baptized by water.’

It is important also to add, "I am making an act of Faith. You are not. I believe in Baptism because Christ revealed it, not because I have also figured it out by my own notion concerning the intrinsic requirements for justification..."

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #103 on: March 20, 2021, 11:48:31 AM »
XavierSem is not about seeking truth, he is just personally frightened by the dogmas on EENS if they are read as they are written. He and those like him believe that if the dogmas on EENS are read literally, as they written, that it will damage innumerable souls by scaring them away from the Church. To them, Vatican II's tender and compassionate ambiguous "evangelization" is the true Catholic approach. Interpreting the EENS dogmas as they are written is frightening and horrifying to them.

It's that simple.

Below is an example of XavierSem's exhibiting his same thinking  I describe above, but on another subject:


Quote
Quote from: XavierSem on Sat Mar 20 2021 02:45:18 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

If a Catholic couple are planning to have 10 children, say, those who state that it is likely that less than 1% of Catholics are saved are saying that odds are almost all those children will be lost. That's a rigorist view not required of any Catholic. It may discourage Catholics from having children thinking that many of them are going to be lost anyway.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #104 on: March 20, 2021, 02:17:53 PM »
It is important also to add, "I am making an act of Faith. You are not. I believe in Baptism because Christ revealed it, not because I have also figured it out by my own notion concerning the intrinsic requirements for justification..."

This is great!

Even an EWTN talking head who personally believed that people didn't need Baptism to be saved admitted that it was speculation because the only thing Our Lord revealed is that Baptism is necessary for salvation.