Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 8062 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46902
  • Reputation: +27764/-5163
  • Gender: Male
Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2021, 06:35:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But these are the 3 theological opinions.

    I hold 3 to be objectively heretical.  You seem to as well in that you said on the "If I were pope ..." thread that you would define the necessity of explicit faith, which you couldn't do if you didn't believe it to be de fide and the contrary to be heretical.

    I believe that St. Alphonsus was wrong in considering Rewarder God theory to be "probable".  He believed that only because it was held by a few theological innovators in his day, but for the first 1500 years of Church history, there was universal consensus against that belief.  In all fairness, this was before the Vatican I definition of Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  If there ever as a dogma of the OUM, it's that explicit faith (in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation) are necessary for salvation.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #76 on: March 19, 2021, 06:38:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • As you know from the other thread, I have come to the conclusion, based on the teaching of St. Ambrose, that there is such a thing as baptism of blood and baptism of votum ... but that these suffice only for justification, not for salvation, that they can only supply, as even Catholic Encyclopedia admits, that part of the grace of Baptism which pertains to remission of sin and justification, but that actual membership in the Church and the Sacramental character are required for salvation.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #77 on: March 19, 2021, 06:49:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Of DeLugo's "three opinions" (would be nice to find his original text), I hold #2, that explicit faith is required for both initial justification AND salvation.  DeLugo's opting for opinion 3 is total bunk and objective heresy.

    Why is it that the Church Fathers clearly limit any possibility of justification ("washing") to catechumens?

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #78 on: March 19, 2021, 07:20:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I found a text of DeLugo online (very difficult to read type of a very old book), but he's opening by promoting the notion that the supernatural virtue of faith can be had without a supernatural object, that supernatural faith can be infused even toward something that can be known by reason.

    This opinion was rejected not only by the Holy Office (in that question regarding Baptism of someone without explicit faith) but also by Vatican I, which taught that supernatural faith requires as an object something that can ONLY BE KNOWN BY REVELATION.  I will find that quote from Vatican I (I have cited it before here), but it puts the nail into the coffin of this opinion.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #79 on: March 19, 2021, 07:21:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Response of the Sacred Office to the Bishop of Quebec, Jan. 25, 1703:
    “Q. Whether a minister is bound, before baptism is conferred on an adult, to explain to him all the mysteries of our faith, especially if he is at the point of death, because this might disturb his mind.  Or, whether it is sufficient, if the one at the point of death will promise that when he recovers from the illness, he will take care to be instructed, so that he might put into practice what has been commanded him.
        “A.  A promise is not sufficient, but a missionary is bound to explain to an adult, even a dying one who is not entirely incapacitated, the mysteries of faith which are necessary by a necessity of means, as are especially the mysteries of the Trinity and the Incarnation.”[Denzinger 1349a]

    Quote
    Response of the Sacred Office to the Bishop of Quebec, Jan. 25, 1703:
    “Q. Whether it is possible for a crude and uneducated adult, as it might be with a barbarian, to be baptized, if there were given him only an understanding of God and some of His attributes… although he does not believe explicitly in Jesus Christ.
        “A.  A missionary should not baptize one who does not believe explicitly in the Lord Jesus Christ, but is bound to instruct him about all those matters which are necessary, by a necessity of means, in accordance with the capacity of the one to be baptized.”[Denzinger 1349b]


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #80 on: March 19, 2021, 07:26:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Xavier, while I wish I could read all of De Lugo, I do not have the time to read it.  Do you have a citation for where he presents these 3 opinions?

    Here is the link for anyone else who can read Latin and has more time than I do ...
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Ro3zm13VpOoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #81 on: March 19, 2021, 07:36:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • De Lugo:
    Quote
    The same must be said about the Jews, if there are any who are invincibly mistaken about the Christian religion; for they can still have a true supernatural faith in God, and about other articles, based on Sacred Scripture, which they accept, and so, with this faith, they can have contrition, by which they can be justified and saved, provided that explicit faith in Christ is not required with a necessity of means, as will be explained later on.

    This was explicitly rejected by the Holy Office (cited above), which stated that explicit faith in Christ is in fact "necessary by necessity of means".

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2330
    • Reputation: +880/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #82 on: March 19, 2021, 07:45:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • De Lugo:

    Quote
    Quote
    The same must be said about the Jews, if there are any who are invincibly mistaken about the Christian religion; for they can still have a true supernatural faith in God, and about other articles, based on Sacred Scripture, which they accept, and so, with this faith, they can have contrition, by which they can be justified and saved, provided that explicit faith in Christ is not required with a necessity of means, as will be explained later on.



    This was explicitly rejected by the Holy Office (cited above), which stated that explicit faith in Christ is in fact "necessary by necessity of means".

    I think we're being punished now, at least in part, for the Church's toleration of this nonsense. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #83 on: March 19, 2021, 07:53:16 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Someone who holds to the Augustinian position would have to hold she was also secretly baptized somehow. Thus, the Augustinian and Thomistic views are practically identical, since, as we know, and as the Holy Office indicated, someone can be baptized if he believes explicitly in Christ i.e. in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, in an emergency. Both the Augustinian and Thomistic views are very close.

    I disagree that any adult will remain in a limbo-like state forever, but I agree with the salvation-justification differentiation.

    No, someone who holds the Augustinian position would NOT "have to hold that she was also secretly baptized somehow."  Xavier, we don't do theology based on anecdotal stories.  You hold stuff like this to be theological proof for some of your positions.  In fact, we do it the other way around.  In holding the Augustinian position, we hold that if she was not Baptized, then that is evidence that she did not enter heaven and have the Beatific Vision for all eternity.

    St. Ambrose clearly taught that there can be no "crowning" (aka entering the Kingdom, the Beatific Vision) even for martyred catechumens without the Sacrament.  St. Simplicius taught that "each and every one" of those desiring Baptism would lose "the Kingdom" without actually receiving the Sacrament.  Why is it that you persist in holding the Sacrament of Baptism to be, essentially, superfluous, as the Council of Trent declared?  That is essentially what you're saying here.  You're effectively promoting salvation by faith alone.  What is the role of Sacrament of Baptism in this story?  HOW did the Sacrament play ANY ROLE WHATSOEVER here?  You don't even make a token mention of it vis-a-vis the alleged salvation of this woman.

    Assuming this story of the converted Jew were true, then she may have experienced a certain degree of justification, which would alter her eternal fate, but she could not arrive at the Beatific Vision had she not received the Sacrament of Baptism.  Now, COULD God have sent an angel to baptize her?  That same angel St. Thomas holds could come to instruct her in the faith could also just as easily baptize her.  This "story" doesn't prove anything theologically.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #84 on: March 19, 2021, 08:21:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here's the story of the Jєωιѕн woman:
    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/a-true-story-concerning-baptism-of-desire-and-st-john-vianney/

    NOWHERE does it mention that she entered Heaven or arrived at the Beatific Vision, but merely implied that she was not "lost" ... which is perfectly consistent with the soteriology based on the teaching of St. Ambrose.  According to this account, the visionary saw Our Lady pleading only that the soul not "perish," i.e. go to Hell.

    St. John Vianney's only role in this was to say that Fr. Hermann would receive a consolation ... which he did.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #85 on: March 19, 2021, 08:27:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I hold that your opinion that adults in your New Covenant go to a perpetual limbo-like state to be objectively heretical. St. Augustine never held that. He taught BOD in at least 5 places, and he never retracted BOD itself. He never for e.g. retracted that Cornelius received Baptism of Desire. He only held, in the case of the Good Thief, that the Thief may have received Baptism in an extraordinary manner. Thus St. Augustine said, someone predestined to eternal life, would not be allowed to end this life, without the Sacrament of the mєdιαtor.

    So the true XavierSem comes out, despising again the necessity of Baptism for salvation.  Ironically, Xavier, it is you who are embracing and endorsing heresy.

    Dummy, the corollary to the St. Augustine position is obviously that if someone did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism, then it follows that they were not predestined for eternal life.  Your bad will causes even your logical faculties to fail.  Ergo, if Fr. Hermann's mother died without the Sacrament of Baptism, then she was not predestined for eternal life, i.e. she was not saved.  Duh.  As I pointed out, NOWHERE in this story, if it's even real, does it claim that she went to Heaven, just that she didn't perish ... which is consistent with justification vs. salvation.

    Both Karl Rahner and the theologian cited in that Catholicism.org article on St. Augustine both conclude that St. Augustine retracted his belief in BoD as being salvific.  Like St. Ambrose, he likely believed that a baptism of votum, of sorts, could wash the soul to certain extent but could not obtain crowning in the Kingdom.

    You make absurd attempts to explain away Pope St. Simplicius as well.

    All this proves that you've already made up your mind and are begging the question, and then using confirmation bias to filter out anything that doesn't agree with you.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #86 on: March 19, 2021, 08:36:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Your interpretation of Pope St. Siricius is ridiculous and absurd.

    You absolutely bad-willed imbecile, you.  I'm not interpreting St. Siricius, merely quoting him that "each and every one" of those who did not receive the Sacrament, even desiring it, would be lost.  It is you who pulled some ridiculous definition of "natural desire" out of your posterior without any proof whatsoever.  YOUR interpretation of St. Siricius is absurd and ridiculous.  Mine was no interpretation but a mere quotation of what he said.

    In the meantime, you keep promoting the blasphemous Valtorta filth.

    I have lost all respect for you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12397
    • Reputation: +7888/-2448
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #87 on: March 19, 2021, 08:40:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    I hold that your opinion that adults in your New Covenant go to a perpetual limbo-like state to be objectively heretical.

    Ha ha.  Based on what?  You've just become the very people you hate - you interpret things like the Diamonds.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46902
    • Reputation: +27764/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #88 on: March 19, 2021, 08:40:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • No, that's your Jansenist opinion that you're promoting. I said faith in Him together with love for Him, contrition for past sins, and desire for Baptism, just like St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus do. If you accuse them of heresy, you sin mortally yourself. You who have imbibed even just ever so little of the Dimondite poison seem to struggle greatly in coming out of it. For myself, I follow the Doctors completely.

    And in your sinister depravity, you again calumniate me by implying that I accuse St. Alphonsus and St. Thomas of heresy, when I have repeatedly asserted the opposite.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12397
    • Reputation: +7888/-2448
    • Gender: Male
    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #89 on: March 19, 2021, 08:41:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Xavier interprets things, or not, depending on his feelings and bias.  Emotional theology and sentimentality.