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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 10088 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2021, 05:39:27 PM »
Tradman, great point.  Baptism/Desire (Trent) = Water/Holy Ghost (Scripture). 
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How people can honestly take 1 single phrase from a long sentence, and pass it off as "doctrine" is baffling.  It's not even a complete sentence! 
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2021, 05:49:05 PM »
Quote from: Tradman on March 15, 2021, 04:57:51 PM
The argument against the bod interpretation is in the words Trent uses.  Cannot without laver.  Cannot without desire.  The word cannot applies to both terms.  Both water and desire for the sacrament are necessary, as it is written...
Unless one is born again...etc.
The final phrase clinches it and absolutely negates the possibility they were talking about desire alone being salvific because it reiterates the need for water and the Holy Ghost in baptism.    

I'm not talking about an argument against BOD. I was responding to Ladislaus's post, and this issue of the translation to a state of justice being different "since the promulgation of the Gospel." It would still be different if an explicit desire for the sacrament were necessary, since the sacrament of baptism didn't exist before the promulgation.
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Offline Tradman

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2021, 06:12:41 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 15, 2021, 05:39:27 PM
Tradman, great point.  Baptism/Desire (Trent) = Water/Holy Ghost (Scripture).  
.
How people can honestly take 1 single phrase from a long sentence, and pass it off as "doctrine" is baffling.  It's not even a complete sentence!
That too! How do they justify highjacking a few words from a sentence, create an entire doctrine out of it, with no supporting explanation in Trent, against the canons thereof, promote an utter contradiction to the sacrament of baptism, to Christ's words, to the words within the sentence they borrowed it from, and actually defend it?  :facepalm:    
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Offline Your Friend Colin

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2021, 07:27:01 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 14, 2021, 07:14:55 PM
And modern men can't stand the idea of not knowing something, which is simply, pride.
well said
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Offline Durango77

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2021, 10:04:37 AM »
Quote from: Tradman on March 15, 2021, 01:18:15 PM
I laud the people who continue to work out the specifics of this discussion as I myself have done for years.  But not all are able to discern so I like to look at simple basics.

Not one person in any of these threads can prove BOD saves anyone. On the other hand, it is certain Baptism saves. So, if BOD does save, whether we believe in it or not, it will get done when God sees fit and that's great.  It is not even remotely dependent on my belief, whereas Baptism is dependent on my belief so that others may learn of salvation and obtain it.  BOD doesn't benefit a potential recipient if I don't believe it.  And it certainly doesn't benefit me or hurt me or any other living person if I don't believe it.  I have yet to determine what benefit there is for believing in BOD as I can only see pitfalls of a very clever undermining of Baptism.  If BOD is false, however, the people who spread the notion of no baptism (BOD), are going to answer for it and for the souls lost to the spread of laxity harbored because of it.  There is no fault or cost for not believing in BOD, but an eternity in hell if Baptism is actually necessary.  

It does hurt you though right, baptism of desire is de fide?  Taught by Trent and numerous church Fathers and a recent example of a high end priest being excommunicated for teaching against it?
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