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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 8089 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2021, 03:03:56 PM »
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    • Byzcat,
    If one were to boil the multitude of protestant heresies into 1 over-arching error, it would be the rejection of the real Christ, through the rejection of His VISIBLE church and a return to "loving" God like the Jҽωs did in the Old Law - faith (in Christ's sacrifice) and reading of Scripture.  All the protestants did was replace faith in the Redeemer for faith in Christ's death and reading of the Old Testament for reading of (most) of the Old and New.  They deleted scripture references to priesthood, church, sacrifice, etc because they reject the New Law.  They rejected the real Christ and created an Old Testament version of Him.  The Jews totally rejected Christ; Protestantism rejected parts of Christ.
    .
    When you argue that the Old Law salvation has to be the same as the New Law, you are arguing from a protestant mindset.  You're a good poster and intelligent, but you need to recognize you've still got some protestant scars left to heal.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #46 on: March 15, 2021, 03:17:26 PM »
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    • I agree, Pax.  If the teaching of Trent can be summed up in a sentence, it was promoting the notion of the Church as a VISIBLE SOCIETY, where salvation happened visibly through the Sacraments.  As Rahner pointed out, the Church Fathers all unanimously believed that visibly belonging to the Church was necessary for salvation.  That's why I (and a few Fathers) give a pass to speculation about Catechumens, since these are in fact, in a way, joined to the visible Church.

    And that is THE doctrinal revolution of Vatican II, replacing Tridentine ecclesiology with a Protestant one.
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    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #47 on: March 15, 2021, 04:21:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 15, 2021, 02:43:45 PM
    Precisely.  And this was my point in the "If I were Pope ..." thread.  While I would fall short of dogmatically condemning BoD, I would absolutely forbid any mention of it among Catholics.  By constantly harping on it, this actually undermines people's belief in the necessity of the Sacrament and can actually work against their desire for Baptism, and therefore jeopardize their souls.  What purpose does it serve?  If there is such a thing as BoD, believing in it doesn't make any difference.  If you didn't believe in it, you'd only desire Baptism all the more ardently, even desperately.  But the new super-dogma of BoD has done little more than to undermine faith and has led to religious indifferentism.  Therefore, all discussion of it and of the possibility of salvation for anyone but Catholics must cease immєdιαtely under pain of grave sin [if I were pope, that is].
    It really has become a super dogma. Consider the various ways people interpret it.  Only some are saved, perhaps many, the invincibly ignorant, catechumens only, anonymous Christians, now pagans, finally, all men are saved.  As long as you don't literally believe water and the Holy Ghost are necessary for salvation.  They manage to have one BOD to bind them.       
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #48 on: March 15, 2021, 04:45:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 15, 2021, 02:08:15 PM

    No, this most certainly does not undermine unanimous consensus.  All the Fathers agreed that SINCE THE PROMULGATION OF THE GOSPEL, explicit faith is required for salvation (as St. Thomas clearly stated as well).  Father after Father threw in the phrase, since the promulgation of the Gospel, when saying that faith in Christ is necessary.  You keep running in circles with this and begging the question.  St. Justin was speculating only on those who died BEFORE Our Lord.  You have to assume that salvation worked the same in the OT and NT in order to claim that this undermines unanimous consensus.  But the Fathers themselves all universally rejected your premise that what worked in the OT must also work in the NT.

    And Trent for me clearly takes the distinction of before/after the promulgation of the Gospel and makes it de fide:


    Quote
    Council of Trent, Session VI

    CHAPTER IV.

    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    I've never heard an adequate response to this argument based on Trent. The response I've heard from those who were trying desperately to avoid it was that the phrase "promulgation of the Gospel" meant individual, personal notice or awareness of the Gospel, which totally discounts the way the Church has understood and used "promulgation of the Gospel" as a time divider, period - basically from the time of the Christ's death and the preaching of the Apostles. 

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #49 on: March 15, 2021, 04:57:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on March 15, 2021, 04:45:55 PM
    And Trent for me clearly takes the distinction of before/after the promulgation of the Gospel and makes it de fide:


    I've never heard an adequate response to this argument based on Trent. The response I've heard from those who were trying desperately to avoid it was that the phrase "promulgation of the Gospel" meant individual, personal notice or awareness of the Gospel, which totally discounts the way the Church has understood and used "promulgation of the Gospel" as a time divider, period - basically from the time of the Christ's death and the preaching of the Apostles.
    The argument against the bod interpretation is in the words Trent uses.  Cannot without laver.  Cannot without desire.  The word cannot applies to both terms.  Both water and desire for the sacrament are necessary, as it is written...
    Unless one is born again...etc.
    The final phrase clinches it and absolutely negates the possibility they were talking about desire alone being salvific because it reiterates the need for water and the Holy Ghost in baptism.     
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #50 on: March 15, 2021, 05:39:27 PM »
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    • Tradman, great point.  Baptism/Desire (Trent) = Water/Holy Ghost (Scripture). 
    .
    How people can honestly take 1 single phrase from a long sentence, and pass it off as "doctrine" is baffling.  It's not even a complete sentence! 
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #51 on: March 15, 2021, 05:49:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on March 15, 2021, 04:57:51 PM
    The argument against the bod interpretation is in the words Trent uses.  Cannot without laver.  Cannot without desire.  The word cannot applies to both terms.  Both water and desire for the sacrament are necessary, as it is written...
    Unless one is born again...etc.
    The final phrase clinches it and absolutely negates the possibility they were talking about desire alone being salvific because it reiterates the need for water and the Holy Ghost in baptism.    

    I'm not talking about an argument against BOD. I was responding to Ladislaus's post, and this issue of the translation to a state of justice being different "since the promulgation of the Gospel." It would still be different if an explicit desire for the sacrament were necessary, since the sacrament of baptism didn't exist before the promulgation.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #52 on: March 15, 2021, 06:12:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 15, 2021, 05:39:27 PM
    Tradman, great point.  Baptism/Desire (Trent) = Water/Holy Ghost (Scripture).  
    .
    How people can honestly take 1 single phrase from a long sentence, and pass it off as "doctrine" is baffling.  It's not even a complete sentence!
    That too! How do they justify highjacking a few words from a sentence, create an entire doctrine out of it, with no supporting explanation in Trent, against the canons thereof, promote an utter contradiction to the sacrament of baptism, to Christ's words, to the words within the sentence they borrowed it from, and actually defend it?  :facepalm:    
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    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #53 on: March 15, 2021, 07:27:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 14, 2021, 07:14:55 PM
    And modern men can't stand the idea of not knowing something, which is simply, pride.
    well said
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    Offline Durango77

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #54 on: March 16, 2021, 10:04:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Tradman on March 15, 2021, 01:18:15 PM
    I laud the people who continue to work out the specifics of this discussion as I myself have done for years.  But not all are able to discern so I like to look at simple basics.

    Not one person in any of these threads can prove BOD saves anyone. On the other hand, it is certain Baptism saves. So, if BOD does save, whether we believe in it or not, it will get done when God sees fit and that's great.  It is not even remotely dependent on my belief, whereas Baptism is dependent on my belief so that others may learn of salvation and obtain it.  BOD doesn't benefit a potential recipient if I don't believe it.  And it certainly doesn't benefit me or hurt me or any other living person if I don't believe it.  I have yet to determine what benefit there is for believing in BOD as I can only see pitfalls of a very clever undermining of Baptism.  If BOD is false, however, the people who spread the notion of no baptism (BOD), are going to answer for it and for the souls lost to the spread of laxity harbored because of it.  There is no fault or cost for not believing in BOD, but an eternity in hell if Baptism is actually necessary.  

    It does hurt you though right, baptism of desire is de fide?  Taught by Trent and numerous church Fathers and a recent example of a high end priest being excommunicated for teaching against it?
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #55 on: March 16, 2021, 10:12:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Durango77 on March 16, 2021, 10:04:37 AM
    It does hurt you though right, baptism of desire is de fide?  Taught by Trent and numerous church Fathers and a recent example of a high end priest being excommunicated for teaching against it?
    Fr. Feeney was "excommunicated" for refusing to go to Rome despite the fact reasons are required for a summon according to canon law.
    https://catholicism.org/father-feeney-fact-sheet.html
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    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #56 on: March 16, 2021, 09:39:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 15, 2021, 05:39:27 PM
    Tradman, great point.  Baptism/Desire (Trent) = Water/Holy Ghost (Scripture).  
    .
    How people can honestly take 1 single phrase from a long sentence, and pass it off as "doctrine" is baffling.  It's not even a complete sentence!
    It says "OR"?  What are you talking about.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #57 on: March 16, 2021, 09:55:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Durango77 on March 16, 2021, 09:39:35 PM
    It says "OR"?  What are you talking about.


    If a jew was to be forcefully baptized, against his will, would he be in the state of justification immєdιαtely after the sacrament is performed?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #58 on: March 17, 2021, 09:18:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Durango77 on March 16, 2021, 10:04:37 AM
    Taught by Trent and numerous church Fathers and a recent example of a high end priest being excommunicated for teaching against it?

    That same old lie keeps getting perpetuated that it was taught by "numerous" Church Fathers.  It was not.  5 or 6 Fathers rejected it and only 1 or 2 ARGUABLY held it.  St. Augustine floated the idea in his youth, then later retracted it, while St. Ambrose's oration on Valentinian is ambiguous and can be interpreted in a number of ways (and he elsewhere in his writing rejects BoD).  That's IT in terms of Patristic support for BoD.

    Someone already responded to the lie that Fr. Feeney was excommunicate for his theology.

    If you want to have a debate, fine, but stop it with the lies.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #59 on: March 17, 2021, 09:25:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on March 16, 2021, 09:55:40 PM

    If a jew was to be forcefully baptized, against his will, would he be in the state of justification immєdιαtely after the sacrament is performed?

    No.  He would receive the Sacramental character, but would not be in a state of justification.  BOTH are required for salvation (in addition to the grace of final perseverance).

    That's another reason to read Trent's teaching as meaning BOTH.  If you receive the LAVER without the VOTUM, then you are not in a state of justification.  And the corollary to this is that if you have the VOTUM without the LAVER, then you are not in a state of justification.

    There's no way this can be read as a teaching on BoD.  Where is any mention of BoB, if that's the intent?  If Trent had been teaching here the "Three Baptisms," then there would certainly have been a mention of BoB.  That is clearly NOT the intent of Trent's teaching here.
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