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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 10135 times)

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2021, 01:39:28 PM »
Well, neither the Church Fathers nor St. Thomas et al. would agree with this.  They struggled with the question of how people were saved prior to the promulgation of the Gospel, with some attributing it to circuмcision, others to hope of the coming Messiah.
st justin martyr said neither, which is my point.  and i get he’s not the consensus so you don’t have to agree with him, but my point has always been this undermines your whole unanimous consensus 
both of the theories you cite above would be more conducive to a absolutist non BOD position  but then justin has to wrong

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2021, 02:08:15 PM »
st justin martyr said neither, which is my point.  and i get he’s not the consensus so you don’t have to agree with him, but my point has always been this undermines your whole unanimous consensus
both of the theories you cite above would be more conducive to a absolutist non BOD position  but then justin has to wrong

No, this most certainly does not undermine unanimous consensus.  All the Fathers agreed that SINCE THE PROMULGATION OF THE GOSPEL, explicit faith is required for salvation (as St. Thomas clearly stated as well).  Father after Father threw in the phrase, since the promulgation of the Gospel, when saying that faith in Christ is necessary.  You keep running in circles with this and begging the question.  St. Justin was speculating only on those who died BEFORE Our Lord.  You have to assume that salvation worked the same in the OT and NT in order to claim that this undermines unanimous consensus.  But the Fathers themselves all universally rejected your premise that what worked in the OT must also work in the NT.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2021, 02:23:30 PM »
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but my point has always been this undermines your whole unanimous consensus

Unanimous consent of the Fathers only relates to 1) Complex Scriptural passages which cannot be read literally, and which unanimous agreement proves that the Apostles taught the Church Fathers all the same thing, which proves that this teaching came from Christ.
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2) Tradition - that is, non-scriptural teachings are proven to be from the Apostles, from Christ.
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St Justin Martyr's musings on how salvation worked in the Old Law does not prove BOD.  The unanimous consensus against BOD is a separate issue because, again, the Old Law was different than the New.
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Based on your earlier complaint that God is unfair for the Old Law being different than the New, I would argue that the Old Law is more lenient, more open and more merciful than the New (from a human perspective).  In reality, both Old and New are the same merciful rules, because God is all-mercy and unchanging.
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The old law is different because Israel's purpose was not to spread out and preach to all nations (as is the Church's purpose).  Israel's purpose was to be a "candle in the darkness" in the midst of a pagan world.  Her message was to spread the coming Redeemer/messiah and for people to convert to the natural law and belief in Christ.  Thus, it's possible that Socrates could be saved if he believed in the Messiah (I'll grant this for argument's sake).  
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But...when the Church came through Christ, which was a fulfillment and perfection of the Old Law, thus the New Law was perfect and the requirements for salvation were more strict.  With the culmination/maturation of the Roman Govt, God made sure that (humanly speaking) the Church/Apostles could spread the Church fairly and practically, even though God also worked multiple, quadrillion upon quadrillion of miracles in the first 5 centuries so that people would know that the Church as true.
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The Old Law spread by word-of-mouth, but could be fulfilled by the 10 commandments and faith.  It was easy to hear the truth and easy to keep it.  The Old Law's salvation rules were based on belief because that is how God revealed Himself to people of the time.  
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The New Law spread by word-of-mouth but in addition to the 10 commandments and faith, the additional requirement was VISIBLE acceptance and VISIBLE membership in a VISIBLE church, because God was no longer loved by faith alone, for He had come to earth VISIBLY, and thus, to love Him required VISIBLE union with His Church (i.e. baptism) and VISIBLE union with Him (i.e. Holy Communion).  So Christ sent out VISIBLE Apostles to spread the Faith, who worked VISIBLE miracles and used VISIBLE sacraments.
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The Old Law requirements for salvation were less stringent because knowledge of God was less.  The New Law is a perfect union of God with man, so more is required for us to be united to His Church.  There is no contradiction here.  God deals with all men equitably, based on the requirements He lays down.  He is an all-loving King; He is the most wise ruler, He is an all-just Judge.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #43 on: March 15, 2021, 02:43:45 PM »
I laud the people who continue to work out the specifics of this discussion as I myself have done for years.  But not all are able to discern so I like to look at simple basics.

Not one person in any of these threads can prove BOD saves anyone. On the other hand, it is certain Baptism saves. So, if BOD does save, whether we believe in it or not, it will get done when God sees fit and that's great.  It is not even remotely dependent on my belief, whereas Baptism is dependent on my belief so that others may learn of salvation and obtain it.  BOD doesn't benefit a potential recipient if I don't believe it.  And it certainly doesn't benefit me or hurt me or any other living person if I don't believe it.  I have yet to determine what benefit there is for believing in BOD as I can only see pitfalls of a very clever undermining of Baptism.  If BOD is false, however, the people who spread the notion of no baptism (BOD), are going to answer for it and for the souls lost to the spread of laxity harbored because of it.  There is no fault or cost for not believing in BOD, but an eternity in hell if Baptism is actually necessary.  

Precisely.  And this was my point in the "If I were Pope ..." thread.  While I would fall short of dogmatically condemning BoD, I would absolutely forbid any mention of it among Catholics.  By constantly harping on it, this actually undermines people's belief in the necessity of the Sacrament and can actually work against their desire for Baptism, and therefore jeopardize their souls.  What purpose does it serve?  If there is such a thing as BoD, believing in it doesn't make any difference.  If you didn't believe in it, you'd only desire Baptism all the more ardently, even desperately.  But the new super-dogma of BoD has done little more than to undermine faith and has led to religious indifferentism.  Therefore, all discussion of it and of the possibility of salvation for anyone but Catholics must cease immediately under pain of grave sin [if I were pope, that is].

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2021, 02:47:14 PM »
Based on your earlier complaint that God is unfair for the Old Law being different than the New, I would argue that the Old Law is more lenient ...

Right.  We have many cases of this.  Our Lord spoke about how God tolerate things (like divorce) due to the hardness of people's hearts and not because it was His plan or desire.  He gets rid of that concession.  Then he strengthened the law ("do not kill" -> any malice against others, even just calling them fools).  Of course, he did get rid of the ritual handwashing and other such physical observances.