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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 8084 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2021, 10:25:49 AM »
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  • Call me when another Herod kills 100's of unbaptized children of Catholics. It has not happened again in 2000 years. Your question is no different than what all the BODers ask, "what if a sanctified pagan dies by accident before he can be baptized" ?  My answer is, why are you killing him before God completes what He started? Why are you killing those modern day "Holy Innocents" before they are baptized?

    The difference between you BODers and I,  is that you believe that a person is born and dies by chance in the time and place where he is, and that he learns the faith by his own volition. I believe that every person is placed in their time and place ( a pre-Columbian Indian in South America) by a just and merciful God, and that the faith is ONLY learned by God's Grace.  
    What about Socrates?  Was he placed there by accident?  Yet, St Justin Martyr said he was saved, and used him as an example to refute the Romans strawmanning Christians as saying there was nobody who lived reasonably before Christ.

    Honestly I'm more concerned with the philosophical principles here than the "practical" workthrough.  I don't mind if you want to believe that not a single native american was saved prior to Columbus crossing the ocean.  But to say it was literally impossible seems to reduce to philosophical nominalism unless you *also* reject St Justin's argument, at which point we're not having a "unanimous consensus of the Fathers" argument anymore.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #31 on: March 15, 2021, 10:26:40 AM »
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  • I’m coming to the conclusion that most Traditional Catholics have more or less lost the faith.  I’ve read thousands of pages from the Church Fathers, and they wouldn’t recognize most modern BoDers as anything other than Pelagian heretics.  Those Traditional Catholics who believe that there are people invisibly inside the Church not only have no business being Traditional Catholics, since that’s all Vatican II is, but are barely holding on to the faith by the skin of their teeth.  This is why Our Lord asked whether there would be any faith left when he returned.
    How is this even consistent with what you said on the other thread about realizing you had made a mistake when you were starting to think, essentially, that you'd become the last Catholic?



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #32 on: March 15, 2021, 10:50:37 AM »
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  • Byzcat, St Padre Pio bilocated to hear the confession of a dying man, trapped in an avalanche.  Why was this needed if an act of contrition would suffice?
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    Columbus wasn’t the first person to sail to America, so the notion that God abandoned the poor, “saintly” natives is not only blasphemous but historically wrong.  Fact is, most American natives worshiped the devil, practiced human sacrifice and were constantly killing each other. They were not saintly but savages.  
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    Even then, God sent multiple saints (bi-location miracles) to preach the faith.  Leif Ericsson visited America in the 1000s with crosses etched into stones all over New England to prove it.
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    God does not need BOD to save people.  He can, and has, worked miracles to provide baptism.  BOD for non-catechumens is simply Protestant “faith alone” salvation, which Trent condemns.  It’s also “self baptism” and “personal church” heresy.  Gain heaven without need for the pope, or a priest or even water.  Music to the non-Catholic’s ears!

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #33 on: March 15, 2021, 11:10:25 AM »
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  • Byzcat, St Padre Pio bilocated to hear the confession of a dying man, trapped in an avalanche.  Why was this needed if an act of contrition would suffice?
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    Because not everyone has perfect contrition? 

    LOL

    This argument actually makes my point, not yours, because Trent is *very* clear that perfect contrition can work before a sacramental confession as long as the intent to eventually go to sacramental confession is there.  And yet God still did this miracle.

    You guys are missing my logic completely.  My point isn't that God *can't* do whatever he wants to do, miraculously or otherwise.  My point is that this sort of argument *isn't* what St Justin Martyr used against the Romans who were saying Christianity was unreasonable.  He didn't say "well a saint could've bilocated and told them about the coming Messiah".  Nah, he said "those who lived reasonably were Christians."

    That its *categorically impossible* that someone meeting these criteria could exist in 35 AD, but its possible in 35 BC, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    that's the only point I'm making.  But I'm increasingly convinced neither side is that concerned with logic or truth.  Anti-BODers are just as much prejudiced by their feeling superior because they're willing to take the cold hard truths without being clouded by emotion, as the pro BODers are about continually insisting that this or that thing *absolutely proves* BOD.  Its a whole mess.

    I'm saying "If X happens, then Y."  If that was true before Christ came, it should be true *after* Christ came also, given the same criteria.

    you're replying back with "well OK but how do you know that ever happens" and I'm just like... I don't.  That's not the point.  Maybe it never happens.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #34 on: March 15, 2021, 11:19:44 AM »
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  • Quote
    That its *categorically impossible* that someone meeting these criteria could exist in 35 AD, but its possible in 35 BC, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
    I have no idea what you mean here.  You often provide no examples in your posts, (ie “that’s nominalism”).  You have a Protestant background, most of us don’t.  Your posts are often cryptic to me.  You use different language than im used to.  
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    Secondly, St Justin Martyr was 1 out of 20+ Church Fathers.  He’s not infallible.  You cant be a “St Justin Martyr Catholic”.  Doctrine = a consensus of the Church Fathers, not just one of them.  St Cyprian was excommunicated for his heresy on baptism until he recanted.  


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #35 on: March 15, 2021, 11:37:59 AM »
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    This argument actually makes my point, not yours, because Trent is *very* clear that perfect contrition can work before a sacramental confession as long as the intent to eventually go to sacramental confession is there.  And yet God still did this miracle.
    Ahh, but you’re missing the key part...intent/opportunity to confess.  This man had no opportunity to confess at a later date, which is why a “perfect act of contrition” wouldn’t suffice for forgiveness.  
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    Point - God doesn’t tear down rules of salvation.  But he does work miracles so that the rules can be fulfilled.  God will not change the requirement for confessing sins to a priest.  He created this requirement.  If the opportunity to confess isn’t possible, he will work a miracle.  
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    If God had known (and decided) that this man trapped in an avalanche would be rescued and his life continued, then the man’s contrition/intent to confess would suffice.  A miracle would not be needed.  But since the man was going to die, and God determined that was this man’s fate, then God worked a miracle because there was no later date to confess.  
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    God does not create rules in order to break them.  This would be a destruction if His integrity, authority and respect.  “Oh what kind of God makes rules that can’t be followed and He has to break them?”, pagans would say.  It would destroy the fabric of Catholicism.  
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    This also applies to BOD.  The graces of justification ONLY work for those who vow/promise to receive the sacrament.  Those that 1) are unable to, or 2) made an insincere promise do NOT get the graces.  
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    Those that die before reception of the sacrament, we can (and must) say that 1) they were not sincere or 2) God worked a miracle to provide water baptism that we didn’t see or weren’t there.
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    To say that a person dies before baptism and goes to heave due to BOD is heresy and accuses God of changing the rules.  It accuses God of lying to us, and makes doctrine arbitrary because God changes whatever, whenever.
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    The proper catholic explanation is that God created the rules of the sacraments.  God is unchanging and eternal, so His rules for grace and holiness are unchanging and enteral.  If one can not fulfill the rules humanly, God will work a miracle to fulfill the rules.  He does not suspend or alter the rules.  In a sense, He’s not allowed.  He cannot deceive.  
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    This is why those who try to explain BOD outside of the rules are utterly confused and never agree.  Because anything not of God leads to confusion.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #36 on: March 15, 2021, 12:15:10 PM »
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  • I’m coming to the conclusion that most Traditional Catholics have more or less lost the faith.
    I arrived at the same conclusion several years ago.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #37 on: March 15, 2021, 12:46:29 PM »
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  • Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood, i.e. death, suffered for the Faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this baptism is comparable to true Baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato. I say as it were because martyrdom does not act by as strict a causality [“non ita stricte”] as the sacraments, but by a certain privilege on account of its resemblance to the passion of Christ. Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view [i.e. the view that infants are not able to benefit from baptism of blood — translator] is at least temerarious. In adults, however, acceptance of martyrdom is required, at least habitually from a supernatural motive.

    Woa... but Bp. Felllay spoke from a San Francisco pulpit in 2016 saying aborted babies likely went to Heave via BOB.

    I mean, couldn't the Pro-lifers standing outside the abortion clinic just think, "I want the babies to be a martyrs and go to Heaven" and that would suffice for the Sacrament?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #38 on: March 15, 2021, 12:54:44 PM »
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  • I'm saying "If X happens, then Y."  If that was true before Christ came, it should be true *after* Christ came also, given the same criteria.

    Well, neither the Church Fathers nor St. Thomas et al. would agree with this.  They struggled with the question of how people were saved prior to the promulgation of the Gospel, with some attributing it to circuмcision, others to hope of the coming Messiah.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #39 on: March 15, 2021, 01:18:15 PM »
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  • I laud the people who continue to work out the specifics of this discussion as I myself have done for years.  But not all are able to discern so I like to look at simple basics.

    Not one person in any of these threads can prove BOD saves anyone. On the other hand, it is certain Baptism saves. So, if BOD does save, whether we believe in it or not, it will get done when God sees fit and that's great.  It is not even remotely dependent on my belief, whereas Baptism is dependent on my belief so that others may learn of salvation and obtain it.  BOD doesn't benefit a potential recipient if I don't believe it.  And it certainly doesn't benefit me or hurt me or any other living person if I don't believe it.  I have yet to determine what benefit there is for believing in BOD as I can only see pitfalls of a very clever undermining of Baptism.  If BOD is false, however, the people who spread the notion of no baptism (BOD), are going to answer for it and for the souls lost to the spread of laxity harbored because of it.  There is no fault or cost for not believing in BOD, but an eternity in hell if Baptism is actually necessary.  

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #40 on: March 15, 2021, 01:39:28 PM »
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  • Well, neither the Church Fathers nor St. Thomas et al. would agree with this.  They struggled with the question of how people were saved prior to the promulgation of the Gospel, with some attributing it to circuмcision, others to hope of the coming Messiah.
    st justin martyr said neither, which is my point.  and i get he’s not the consensus so you don’t have to agree with him, but my point has always been this undermines your whole unanimous consensus 
    both of the theories you cite above would be more conducive to a absolutist non BOD position  but then justin has to wrong


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #41 on: March 15, 2021, 02:08:15 PM »
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  • st justin martyr said neither, which is my point.  and i get he’s not the consensus so you don’t have to agree with him, but my point has always been this undermines your whole unanimous consensus
    both of the theories you cite above would be more conducive to a absolutist non BOD position  but then justin has to wrong

    No, this most certainly does not undermine unanimous consensus.  All the Fathers agreed that SINCE THE PROMULGATION OF THE GOSPEL, explicit faith is required for salvation (as St. Thomas clearly stated as well).  Father after Father threw in the phrase, since the promulgation of the Gospel, when saying that faith in Christ is necessary.  You keep running in circles with this and begging the question.  St. Justin was speculating only on those who died BEFORE Our Lord.  You have to assume that salvation worked the same in the OT and NT in order to claim that this undermines unanimous consensus.  But the Fathers themselves all universally rejected your premise that what worked in the OT must also work in the NT.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #42 on: March 15, 2021, 02:23:30 PM »
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    but my point has always been this undermines your whole unanimous consensus

    Unanimous consent of the Fathers only relates to 1) Complex Scriptural passages which cannot be read literally, and which unanimous agreement proves that the Apostles taught the Church Fathers all the same thing, which proves that this teaching came from Christ.
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    2) Tradition - that is, non-scriptural teachings are proven to be from the Apostles, from Christ.
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    St Justin Martyr's musings on how salvation worked in the Old Law does not prove BOD.  The unanimous consensus against BOD is a separate issue because, again, the Old Law was different than the New.
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    Based on your earlier complaint that God is unfair for the Old Law being different than the New, I would argue that the Old Law is more lenient, more open and more merciful than the New (from a human perspective).  In reality, both Old and New are the same merciful rules, because God is all-mercy and unchanging.
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    The old law is different because Israel's purpose was not to spread out and preach to all nations (as is the Church's purpose).  Israel's purpose was to be a "candle in the darkness" in the midst of a pagan world.  Her message was to spread the coming Redeemer/messiah and for people to convert to the natural law and belief in Christ.  Thus, it's possible that Socrates could be saved if he believed in the Messiah (I'll grant this for argument's sake).  
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    But...when the Church came through Christ, which was a fulfillment and perfection of the Old Law, thus the New Law was perfect and the requirements for salvation were more strict.  With the culmination/maturation of the Roman Govt, God made sure that (humanly speaking) the Church/Apostles could spread the Church fairly and practically, even though God also worked multiple, quadrillion upon quadrillion of miracles in the first 5 centuries so that people would know that the Church as true.
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    The Old Law spread by word-of-mouth, but could be fulfilled by the 10 commandments and faith.  It was easy to hear the truth and easy to keep it.  The Old Law's salvation rules were based on belief because that is how God revealed Himself to people of the time.  
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    The New Law spread by word-of-mouth but in addition to the 10 commandments and faith, the additional requirement was VISIBLE acceptance and VISIBLE membership in a VISIBLE church, because God was no longer loved by faith alone, for He had come to earth VISIBLY, and thus, to love Him required VISIBLE union with His Church (i.e. baptism) and VISIBLE union with Him (i.e. Holy Communion).  So Christ sent out VISIBLE Apostles to spread the Faith, who worked VISIBLE miracles and used VISIBLE sacraments.
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    The Old Law requirements for salvation were less stringent because knowledge of God was less.  The New Law is a perfect union of God with man, so more is required for us to be united to His Church.  There is no contradiction here.  God deals with all men equitably, based on the requirements He lays down.  He is an all-loving King; He is the most wise ruler, He is an all-just Judge.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #43 on: March 15, 2021, 02:43:45 PM »
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  • I laud the people who continue to work out the specifics of this discussion as I myself have done for years.  But not all are able to discern so I like to look at simple basics.

    Not one person in any of these threads can prove BOD saves anyone. On the other hand, it is certain Baptism saves. So, if BOD does save, whether we believe in it or not, it will get done when God sees fit and that's great.  It is not even remotely dependent on my belief, whereas Baptism is dependent on my belief so that others may learn of salvation and obtain it.  BOD doesn't benefit a potential recipient if I don't believe it.  And it certainly doesn't benefit me or hurt me or any other living person if I don't believe it.  I have yet to determine what benefit there is for believing in BOD as I can only see pitfalls of a very clever undermining of Baptism.  If BOD is false, however, the people who spread the notion of no baptism (BOD), are going to answer for it and for the souls lost to the spread of laxity harbored because of it.  There is no fault or cost for not believing in BOD, but an eternity in hell if Baptism is actually necessary.  

    Precisely.  And this was my point in the "If I were Pope ..." thread.  While I would fall short of dogmatically condemning BoD, I would absolutely forbid any mention of it among Catholics.  By constantly harping on it, this actually undermines people's belief in the necessity of the Sacrament and can actually work against their desire for Baptism, and therefore jeopardize their souls.  What purpose does it serve?  If there is such a thing as BoD, believing in it doesn't make any difference.  If you didn't believe in it, you'd only desire Baptism all the more ardently, even desperately.  But the new super-dogma of BoD has done little more than to undermine faith and has led to religious indifferentism.  Therefore, all discussion of it and of the possibility of salvation for anyone but Catholics must cease immediately under pain of grave sin [if I were pope, that is].

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #44 on: March 15, 2021, 02:47:14 PM »
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  • Based on your earlier complaint that God is unfair for the Old Law being different than the New, I would argue that the Old Law is more lenient ...

    Right.  We have many cases of this.  Our Lord spoke about how God tolerate things (like divorce) due to the hardness of people's hearts and not because it was His plan or desire.  He gets rid of that concession.  Then he strengthened the law ("do not kill" -> any malice against others, even just calling them fools).  Of course, he did get rid of the ritual handwashing and other such physical observances.