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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 10149 times)

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2021, 07:04:52 PM »
Perhaps I should've looked more carefully to determine *what* infants we were talking about.  The Holy Innocents were killed for the faith, because herod wanted to kill Christ.  And they were in Israel, which was the "church" of the Old Testament.  It sure seems to me that hypothetically speaking, an unbaptized child of a Catholic parent who was martyred (say ISIS killed the whole family for being Catholics) would be equivalent to something like that, and that seems like a pretty reasonable application of Baptism of *Blood*.  Now if you wanna say that the child of some random infant who dies (with their death having nothing to do with the faith, not being for the faith even in an indirect sense) it seems less likely BOB would apply, and more likely they'd end up in Limbo.  But to say that children who die under equivalent circuмstances to the Holy Innocents end up in Limbo because of some arbitrary legal change from God seems more like Protestant style nominalism where God arbitrarily decides whether to impute guilt or not than it does the logic of Catholicism/
Call me when another Herod kills 100's of unbaptized children of Catholics. It has not happened again in 2000 years. Your question is no different than what all the BODers ask, "what if a sanctified pagan dies by accident before he can be baptized" ?  My answer is, why are you killing him before God completes what He started? Why are you killing those modern day "Holy Innocents" before they are baptized?

The difference between you BODers and I,  is that you believe that a person is born and dies by chance in the time and place where he is, and that he learns the faith by his own volition. I believe that every person is placed in their time and place ( a pre-Columbian Indian in South America) by a just and merciful God, and that the faith is ONLY learned by God's Grace.  

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2021, 07:14:55 PM »
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This is nominalism IMO.

It's both a fact of history and theology that the Old Testament Laws were different from the New.  Your error is that you assume God dealt with people in these different times in the same way.  God created the rules of the Old Law and He provided graces to every human being, based on this Old Law.  He wanted all men to be saved in the Old Testament, just like He does in the New.  When God created the New Law, He correspondingly provided different graces, based on the new rules.
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At the end of the day, every error related to salvation/baptism (and there are countless errors) comes from a lack of faith in God's all-loving Providence.  People think they can understand/explain how God communicates, treats and speaks to every human being in a different way; but this is a theological mystery, as is salvation in general.
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Instead of accepting the biblical truth that God truly, infallibly, and fully "wills all men to be saved", through the visible Church, men invent ways around this, because otherwise salvation is unexplainable.  And modern men can't stand the idea of not knowing something, which is simply, pride.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2021, 11:09:02 PM »
I’m coming to the conclusion that most Traditional Catholics have more or less lost the faith.  I’ve read thousands of pages from the Church Fathers, and they wouldn’t recognize most modern BoDers as anything other than Pelagian heretics.  Those Traditional Catholics who believe that there are people invisibly inside the Church not only have no business being Traditional Catholics, since that’s all Vatican II is, but are barely holding on to the faith by the skin of their teeth.  This is why Our Lord asked whether there would be any faith left when he returned.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2021, 11:18:53 PM »
My opposition to BoD comes not from the Diamond Brothers, as Xavier keeps calumniating me, nor even from Father Feeney.  It comes from the Church Fathers, whose faith most closely reflects what Our Lord revealed.

Yes, St. Thomas et al. believed in BoD but not for those who were not visibly united to the Church by at least the profession of the faith. Even on that, they were mistaken.  There’s zero proof that this is revealed, and if anything was revealed, it was the opposite ... as the Patristics scholar Fr. Jurgen asserts.  I agree with him 100%.  Nobody has ever theologically proven BoD.  They just keep parroting each other and gratuitously stating that it exists ... with a false circular chain of authority that all leads back to St. Augustine, who actually rejected his youthful speculation in his more mature Pelagian days.

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2021, 11:29:10 PM »
My opposition to BoD comes not from the Diamond Brothers, as Xavier keeps calumniating me, nor even from Father Feeney.  It comes from the Church Fathers, whose faith most closely reflects what Our Lord revealed.

Yes, St. Thomas et al. believed in BoD but not for those who were not visibly united to the Church by at least the profession of the faith. Even on that, they were mistaken.  There’s zero proof that this is revealed, and if anything was revealed, it was the opposite ... as the Patristics scholar Fr. Jurgen asserts.  I agree with him 100%.  Nobody has ever theologically proven BoD.  They just keep parroting each other and gratuitously stating that it exists ... with a false circular chain of authority that all leads back to St. Augustine, who actually rejected his youthful speculation in his more mature Pelagian days.
I understand how you feel about people calumniating you, some mhfmites have done it to @1friarminor on twitter. He also has been preaching against bod before mhfm.  There is a twitter account @1_clairvoyant has proof of that, most haven't publicly apologized.  


I totally agree with what you said; This is why Our Lord asked whether there would be any faith left when he returned.