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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 10016 times)

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Offline RomanTheo

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2021, 05:21:30 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on March 14, 2021, 04:18:26 PM
Doesn't matter:

Cardinal de Lugo says (in the quote above) it was the opinion of Suarez, St. Thomas Aquinas, and others that, "Before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit."

Only God knows who these "others" are.
Here is the quote from St. Thomas that de Lugo referenced:
 
St. Thomas, Summa, III, q. 69, a. 4:

Objection 2. Further, one does not need to receive what one has already acquired. But some approach Baptism who have already grace and virtues: thus we read (Acts 10:1-2): "There was a certain man in Cesarea, named Cornelius, a centurion of that which is called Italian band, a religious man and fearing God"; who, nevertheless, was afterwards baptized by Peter. Therefore grace and virtues are not bestowed by Baptism. (…)
 
Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (Article 1, Reply to Objection 2; III:68:2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Psalm 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism."
 
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2021, 05:28:05 PM »
Quote from: SeanJohnson on March 14, 2021, 04:11:14 PM

Quote
Last Tradhican wrote: St. Alphonsus Ligouri and ALL the Fathers, Doctors, and Saints, rejected salvation by implicit faith, that is the salvation of the Muslim, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists, which I am certain is what you believe. So you reject the very saint that you bring forward.

Your assertion carries within itself an internal contradiction:

St. Alphonsus is himself a Doctor of the Church, and he very obviously taught implicit baptism of desire (in addition to listing many others in the quotes above who taught the same).

That aside, can you please show me which doctors of the Church, after Trent, reject baptism of desire?

If the answer is none, perhaps you should reflect on why that might be?
I am sorry Sean Johnson, but if you do not know the difference between implicit baptism of desire (which St Alphonsus taught) and salvation by Implicit faith which I even gave an example of  above (which St. Alphonsus Ligouri rejected) then you have no business posting what you are just copying and pasting here without even knowing what it is saying.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2021, 05:36:26 PM »
Quote from: Durango77 on March 14, 2021, 04:02:50 PM
Quote
:Last Tradhican - St. Alphonsus Ligouri and ALL the Fathers, Doctors, and Saints, rejected salvation by implicit faith, that is the salvation of the Muslim, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists, which I am certain is what you believe. So you reject the very saint that you bring forward.

Certain that I believe what?
 I assent to the teaching of the Church, council of Trent says baptism or its desire right, thats a direct quote right?  How that actually works in practice I don't know and don't care thats between God and an unbaptized person.  Why there is all this back and forth about this topic, that is essentially meaningless to anyone who is reading threads here due to already being baptized, is beyond me.
Cut the smokescreen and answer the question.  Do you believe that Muslim, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists, etc can be saved by implicit faith?
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Online Yeti

  • Supporter
Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2021, 05:37:16 PM »
Here is a magnificent passage from one of my favorite authors, Fr. Frederick William Faber, in which he mentions baptism of desire (from The Creator and the Creature):


Quote
But wide as He has made the ample bosom of His Church, and though He has multiplied with a commonness, which almost injures reverence, the potent sacraments, this is not enough. None must slip through, if He can but help it. None must be lost except in His despite. There must be something still left, which needs no priest, something as wide as air and as free, which men may have when they cannot have, or at the needful moment cannot find, the sacraments of His own loving institution.

One thing there is, and one only, and we are not surely now sur­prised to find that one thing -- love. If need be, love can baptize without water, can confirm without chrism, can absolve without ordination, can almost communicate without a Host. For, great as are the sacraments, love is a higher emanation of that priesthood which is for ever according to the order of Melchisedech. How shall we read these riddles, if they may not mean that God so desires our love, that He almost tires our attention and outstrips our imagina­tion by the novelty and profusion of His merciful desires to secure this marvelously priceless treasure, the puny love of finite hearts?
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2021, 05:39:52 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 14, 2021, 03:45:31 PM
There’s a glaring mistake in using the example of the Holy Innocents, namely that they died before the Sacrament of Baptism was instituted.
No offense, but that's kinda ridiculous IMO.

So theoretically children could meet the same hypothetical criteria, but still go to Limbo instead of heaven just 'cause they were born later?  Because... reasons?

I mean, I could see arguing that that doesn't apply to all infants, just these infants because they were martyred for the faith (despite not being cognizant of it).  I'd generally agree that this doesn't mean any rando baby who's aborted or something is saved. But the argument you're making here seems pretty dang arbitrary.

TBH this is the same reason I disagree with you on St Justin Martyr.  You insist that St Justin was willing to assert that "Those who lived reasonably (before the incarnation) were Christians, which was why Socrates was saved, but if we even speculate there might've been someone in 50 AD who met the same criteria as Socrates but was living in the New World we're "denying the plain consensus of 1500 years of theology".... because this is really, really arbitrary I guess.

I think there's a lot of bad pro BOD arguments, but honestly, I think this one's actually pretty good.
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