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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 8043 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2021, 08:42:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 19, 2021, 08:40:10 AM
    Ha ha.  Based on what?  You've just become the very people you hate - you interpret things like the Diamonds.

    He's experiencing another emotional meltdown.  Whenever he does that, he accuses me of being a Dimondite and considering St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus to be heretics.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #91 on: March 19, 2021, 08:43:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 19, 2021, 08:41:38 AM
    Xavier interprets things, or not, depending on his feelings and bias.  Emotional theology and sentimentality.

    Right, and this is why he clings to the sappy emotionalism of a Valtorta and considers it sublime.

    It was not for no reason that I referred to him for some time as XavierFem.  He goes from one private revelation to the next seeking confirmation for his own opinions.

    Every time I think he's showing a bit of honesty, he melts back down into this notion of effectively rejecting the necessity of Baptism for salvation.  He pays lipservice to the dogma that the Sacrament is necessary for salvation, but then keeps articulating BoD without making any reference to Baptism whatsoever, just contrition and conversion and love, yada yada yada.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #92 on: March 19, 2021, 09:58:00 AM »
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    • I am awaiting for ValtortaSem, Mr. EWTN's next thread to be on the greatness of Maria Faustina and her Divine Mercy devotion. Or did he already do it and I missed it?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #93 on: March 19, 2021, 10:10:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on March 19, 2021, 08:54:43 AM
    I articulate Baptism of Desire in precisely the way St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus did. Your problem is ultimately with them, not me.
    ValtortaSem's problem is with St. Thomas and St. Alphonus Ligouri, as well as with all the dogmas on EENS, so to get around them all in one second,  he's come up with his own personal "dogma"

    "Good" Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc. can be saved by Christ miraculously appearing  to them in their last seconds of life and scaring them into believing in Incarnation and the Holy Trinity and they will go straight to heaven."

    Hay ValtortaSem, you still need to get the baptisimal character on those non-Catholics, since you are disagreeing with St. Thomas by sending them to heaven instead of Purgatory. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #94 on: March 19, 2021, 11:16:58 AM »
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    • Quote
    I articulate Baptism of Desire in precisely the way St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus did.

    You absolutely do not.  You "supplement" what they say with pious stories from St Padre Pio or St John Marie, as if these latter saints were "filling in the gaps" of St Thomas/Alphonsus.  That's not how theology works.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #95 on: March 19, 2021, 12:24:28 PM »
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    • Here's an interesting article from Avery Dulles:
    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/02/001-who-can-be-saved-8

    Note this passage:
    Quote
    The Dominican Melchior Cano argued that these populations [invincibly ignorant infidels] were in a situation no different from that of the pre-Christian pagans praised by Justin and others. They could be justified in this life (but not saved in the life to come) by implicit faith in the Christian mysteries.

    Again the distinction between justification and salvation.

    As Dulles points out, a lot of these guys were all over the proverbial map on this issue.  Yet NOT ONCE has anyone offered a THEOLOGICAL PROOF for this speculation, that invincibly ignorant infidels can be saved.  They were motivated by the emotional consideration of those natives who were discovered in the New World and finding it difficult to believe that they were lost.  So they came up with various explanations that would allow them to be justified and even (for some of them) saved.

    That is not Catholic theology and is nothing but speculation.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #96 on: March 20, 2021, 07:31:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on March 19, 2021, 11:03:46 PM
    Let's look at what St. Alphonsus believed. Many Thomists believe St. Alphonsus taught (1) a person can be justified by explicit faith in God alone, through Perfect Love of God; but (2) a person is saved only after coming to explicit knowledge of Christ, and the Triune God.

    According to De Lugo, this distinction between justification and salvation is common among the theologians of that day, and not invented by Father Feeney.

    I, on the other hand, hold that ....

    1) explicit faith is necessary even for justification

    AND

    2) both explicit faith and the Sacrament of Baptism are necessary for salvation

    Every theological source that I have ever seen (including the infamous Baius) limits the possibility of SALVATION without the Sacrament of Baptism to CATECHUMENS ALONE, to those with explicit faith.  I was just reading Melchior Cano (in Latin) and he said the same thing.

    I follow the teaching of St. Ambrose that martyr catechumens can be WASHED but not CROWNED, aka justified but not saved.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #97 on: March 20, 2021, 07:41:51 AM »
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    • Another proof that "Baptism of Desire" is not defined anywhere.

    These theologians were all over the map where it came to the permutations between salvation and justification.

    I hold that there is a baptism of desire (I refuse to capitalize it going forward because it is NOT the Sacrament, nor a substituted for the Sacrament, as a lot of Modern sources wrongly state).  It merely can supply to varying degrees (baptism of blood perfectly and baptism of desire from imperfectly to perfectly) the ONE effect of the Sacrament, namely, the remission of sins, the "washing" spoken of by St. Ambrose.

    You'll notice, given this distinction, that Trent, in the famous "desire thereof" passage, clearly speaks of JUSTIFICATION and not salvation, while elsewhere stating that the Sacrament of Baptism of necessary for SALVATION.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #98 on: March 20, 2021, 07:45:55 AM »
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    • So, Xavier, in this last post you are acknowledging the distinction between justification and salvation held by many theologians.

    How can you, then, adduce Trent as a proof text for the possibility of salvation by desire when Trent CLEARLY uses the term "justification"?  Or were the Fathers at Trent stupid and unacquainted with the distinction between justification and salvation?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #99 on: March 20, 2021, 07:52:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on March 19, 2021, 11:03:46 PM
    Let's look at what St. Alphonsus believed. Many Thomists believe St. Alphonsus taught (1) a person can be justified by explicit faith in God alone, through Perfect Love of God; but (2) a person is saved only after coming to explicit knowledge of Christ, and the Triune God.

    So what are you arguing here?  If you believe, as they did, that implicit faith can lead to justification but not salvation, then what's your point?  I don't have a huge problem with that even though I disagree, and neither does Father Feeney.  Father Feeney, and many of us, hold that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation even if not for justification.  I hold that implicit faith of some kind might be sufficient for some degree of justification (remission of sin) but not a complete remission of sin.

    I can cite a dozen quotes from the Magisterium that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for SALVATION.  That famous passage in Trent clearly uses the term JUSTIFICATION.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #100 on: March 20, 2021, 08:37:06 AM »
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    • Honestly, I've been busy and haven't been able to fully follow this thread, but I want to ask Ladislaus one question.

    If you can be justified but not saved by implicit faith, what happens if you die justified  but without water baptism?

    If your answer is that theoretically you'd go to heaven, but God won't ever actually let that happen, OK.  That seems somewhat speculative moreso than definitive, but I certainly don't know that it ever happens.

    Or is your answer that such people would end up in Limbo?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #101 on: March 20, 2021, 09:38:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on March 20, 2021, 08:37:06 AM
    Honestly, I've been busy and haven't been able to fully follow this thread, but I want to ask Ladislaus one question.

    If you can be justified but not saved by implicit faith, what happens if you die justified  but without water baptism?

    If your answer is that theoretically you'd go to heaven, but God won't ever actually let that happen, OK.  That seems somewhat speculative moreso than definitive, but I certainly don't know that it ever happens.

    Or is your answer that such people would end up in Limbo?

    I would say Limbo. Clearly the theologians cited by De Lugo distinguished between justification and salvation (as Father Feeney did), but I don't recall or haven't read what they say about someone who would hypothetically die justified but not saved.

    So my answer is Limbo.  Father Feeney simply answered "I don't know."  I am unaware of whether these other theologians dealt with the question at all.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #102 on: March 20, 2021, 11:18:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 20, 2021, 09:38:34 AM
    I would say Limbo. Clearly the theologians cited by De Lugo distinguished between justification and salvation (as Father Feeney did), but I don't recall or haven't read what they say about someone who would hypothetically die justified but not saved.

    So my answer is Limbo.  Father Feeney simply answered "I don't know."  I am unaware of whether these other theologians dealt with the question at all.
    Fr. Feeney from Bread of Life:

    ...He will then say, "If you die in the state of justification, without yet being baptized, are you not saved?"
    You must answer him, "No, you are not. 'That is your reasoning in the matter. That is not Christ's statement."

    And if he persists in saying, "Well, where does one go who dies in the state of justification which has been achieved without Baptism?"—insist that he does not go to Heaven.

    And if he goes on to yell at you angrily, "Where are you going to send him—to Hell?", say: "No, I am not going to send him to
    Hell because I am not the Judge of the living and the dead. I am going to say what Christ said, ‘He cannot go into Heaven unless he is baptized by water.’

    It is important also to add, "I am making an act of Faith. You are not. I believe in Baptism because Christ revealed it, not because I have also figured it out by my own notion concerning the intrinsic requirements for justification..."
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #103 on: March 20, 2021, 11:48:31 AM »
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    • XavierSem is not about seeking truth, he is just personally frightened by the dogmas on EENS if they are read as they are written. He and those like him believe that if the dogmas on EENS are read literally, as they written, that it will damage innumerable souls by scaring them away from the Church. To them, Vatican II's tender and compassionate ambiguous "evangelization" is the true Catholic approach. Interpreting the EENS dogmas as they are written is frightening and horrifying to them.

    It's that simple.

    Below is an example of XavierSem's exhibiting his same thinking  I describe above, but on another subject:


    Quote
    Quote from: XavierSem on Sat Mar 20 2021 02:45:18 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)

    If a Catholic couple are planning to have 10 children, say, those who state that it is likely that less than 1% of Catholics are saved are saying that odds are almost all those children will be lost. That's a rigorist view not required of any Catholic. It may discourage Catholics from having children thinking that many of them are going to be lost anyway.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
    « Reply #104 on: March 20, 2021, 02:17:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 20, 2021, 11:18:37 AM
    It is important also to add, "I am making an act of Faith. You are not. I believe in Baptism because Christ revealed it, not because I have also figured it out by my own notion concerning the intrinsic requirements for justification..."

    This is great!

    Even an EWTN talking head who personally believed that people didn't need Baptism to be saved admitted that it was speculation because the only thing Our Lord revealed is that Baptism is necessary for salvation.
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