Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD (Read 10029 times)

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #70 on:** March 18, 2021, 03:44:19 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 18, 2021, 01:37:02 PM

Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree on Justification, Chapter IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire “implicit” desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions for the water baptism, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards. God will appear to them in their last seconds of life and scare them into believing in Christ and the Holy Trinity and they will go straight to heaven.)

If from the above decree, the implict faither's deduce that a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist Jew etc., that has no explicit desire to be a Catholic or be baptized, can be saved by his belief in a God that rewards, his implicit faith, why would it not go both ways? That is, a Jew that is baptized against his will will also be saved and moreover, will have the indelible baptismal mark which the Jew that had no forced baptism would not have. The implicit faither's believe that a Muslim who explicitly does not want to be baptized or be a Catholic is really a Catholic, but he just does not know it, so why can't he be also baptized although he did not desire it either?

Durango77 · « **Reply #71 on:** March 18, 2021, 05:04:24 PM »

I read some St Alphonsus last night. I'm not gonna get into hypotheticals of can a tractor living on a desert island be saved, because it has no bearing on reality. The reality is God can save whoever He wants however He wants to do it and to say that He cannot is error.

There are docuмented cases of people being saved without baptism of water in the Bible and Church tradition to prove this point.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #72 on:** March 18, 2021, 06:00:48 PM »

Quote from: Durango77 on March 18, 2021, 05:04:24 PM

The reality is God can save whoever He wants however He wants to do it and to say that He cannot is error. ( to say that a person can die by accident before God can complete the easiest part of the conversion, the baptism, which takes 3 seconds, is insanity. Especially since it is apposed to so many dogmas on salvation)

There are docuмented cases of people being saved without baptism of water in the Bible and Church tradition to prove this point ( since the new covenant, the stories of people being saved by BOD are few and unproveable. Meanwhile the actual real and confirmed stories of people being sent back from the dead to be baptized are hundreds. And infants, sick, and elderly holding on to life till they are baptized, then they die within seconds are in the millions.)

Answers in red above.

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

Stubborn · « **Reply #73 on:** March 19, 2021, 05:17:38 AM »

Quote from: Durango77 on March 18, 2021, 05:04:24 PM

I read some St Alphonsus last night. I'm not gonna get into hypotheticals of can a tractor living on a desert island be saved, because it has no bearing on reality. The reality is God can save whoever He wants however He wants to do it and to say that He cannot is error.

There are docuмented cases of people being saved without baptism of water in the Bible and Church tradition to prove this point.

This is actually not true in the sense you are implying, but it is true in that for us all, God established the means by which we all must use in order to be saved - which is to say that what He established truly is to whom and however He wanted.

Outside of that, God does not and cannot make exceptions to those requirements that He established and instituted as being necessary for salvation, nor does He have any reason whatsoever to make any exceptions.

Can you think of only one reason God would need to make any exception at all to that which He made a requirement?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #74 on:** March 19, 2021, 06:31:14 AM »

So DeLugo also distinguishes between justification and salvation.

Interesting ....

So much for the claim that there's no precedent for Fr. Feeney's position.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD (Read 10029 times)

Last Tradhican

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD

Durango77

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD

Last Tradhican

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD

Stubborn

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD

Ladislaus

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD