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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 10030 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2021, 09:04:37 AM »

Quote
What St. Alphonsus meant by implicit desire is completely different from what most modern BoDers mean.  These latter believe that the desire can be implicit in simply being a nice person ... without any need for explicit faith.  Most moderns mean implicit faith when they use the term implicit Baptism of Desire.  So while the words are the same, the meaning and import are altogether different.

Exactly!
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Xavier, until you admit (and rightly condemn) the modern corruption of what St Alphonsus taught, including +ABL's and +Fellay's errors, whenever you quote St Alphonsus on this issue, you are mocking his orthodoxy.  He would be appalled at how the Modernists corrupted the word "implicit" and re-defined it for their heretical purposes.

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2021, 01:37:02 PM »
While you are on the subject of XavierSem's never ending subterfuge of quoting St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Implicit baptism of desire while he really totally rejects it in his belief in salvation of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc, by implicit faith,  a totally different theory that St. Alphonsus Ligouri rejected. Here is the only dogmatic source they have for BOD of any flavor and even there they have to interpret it according to their own desires. One has to have a sense of humor to go on with these sophist vipers. Here is how the implicit faither's interpret the council of Trent  (in red):

Council of Trent, Session VI  (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree on Justification, Chapter IV.
 
 A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
 By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire “implicit” desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions for the water baptism, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards. God will appear to them in their last seconds of life and scare them into believing in Christ and the Holy Trinity and they will go straight to heaven.)
 
 Below are some Trent dogmas that have to do with Justification and Baptism which they totally reject:
 

Chapter VII. What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

 This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
 
 Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)


Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments. On Baptism
 

Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)
 
Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)



Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2021, 02:03:35 PM »
I agree, Pax.  If the teaching of Trent can be summed up in a sentence, it was promoting the notion of the Church as a VISIBLE SOCIETY, where salvation happened visibly through the Sacraments.  As Rahner pointed out, the Church Fathers all unanimously believed that visibly belonging to the Church was necessary for salvation.  That's why I (and a few Fathers) give a pass to speculation about Catechumens, since these are in fact, in a way, joined to the visible Church.

And that is THE doctrinal ʀɛʋօʟutιօn of Vatican II, replacing Tridentine ecclesiology with a Protestant one.
If BOD advocates left it to only catechumens it would be different. But I still fail to see how the catechumens are members of the Church. They are not born again or buried with Christ. No council teaches they are members. Also, there is a clear distinction found all over the place--including the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful, and that the early Church made them leave the churches prior to the Offertory.        
They didn't receive the laver of regeneration, as Mystici Corporis #22 states as needed for membership, and so on. Actually, the evidence is greatly against the notion, so it remains difficult to believe so many held it. It seems as though important theologians speculating simply became accepted by so many. It seems obvious to me that BOD is the root of this current apostasy, but it is very difficult to convince anyone of that.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2021, 02:15:19 PM »
If BOD advocates left it to only catechumens it would be different. But I still fail to see how the catechumens are members of the Church. They are not born again or buried with Christ. No council teaches they are members. Also, there is a clear distinction found all over the place--including the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful, and that the early Church made them leave the churches prior to the Offertory.        
They didn't receive the laver of regeneration, as Mystici Corporis #22 states as needed for membership, and so on. Actually, the evidence is greatly against the notion, so it remains difficult to believe so many held it. It seems as though important theologians speculating simply became accepted by so many. It seems obvious to me that BOD is the root of this current apostasy, but it is very difficult to convince anyone of that.

Right, but I would take that since it doesn't destroy Catholic ecclesiology the way other versions do.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2021, 02:53:23 PM »
I do believe in a BoB for Catechumens, and possibly a BoB.

But, according to St. Ambrose, the BoB and the BoD obtain "washing" (from sin) but now "crowning" (supernatural life), so justification but not salvation.