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Author Topic: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD  (Read 10046 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2021, 10:12:43 AM »
Quote from: Durango77 on March 16, 2021, 10:04:37 AM
It does hurt you though right, baptism of desire is de fide?  Taught by Trent and numerous church Fathers and a recent example of a high end priest being excommunicated for teaching against it?
Fr. Feeney was "excommunicated" for refusing to go to Rome despite the fact reasons are required for a summon according to canon law.
https://catholicism.org/father-feeney-fact-sheet.html
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Offline Durango77

Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2021, 09:39:35 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 15, 2021, 05:39:27 PM
Tradman, great point.  Baptism/Desire (Trent) = Water/Holy Ghost (Scripture).  
.
How people can honestly take 1 single phrase from a long sentence, and pass it off as "doctrine" is baffling.  It's not even a complete sentence!
It says "OR"?  What are you talking about.
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Offline trad123

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2021, 09:55:40 PM »
Quote from: Durango77 on March 16, 2021, 09:39:35 PM
It says "OR"?  What are you talking about.


If a jew was to be forcefully baptized, against his will, would he be in the state of justification immєdιαtely after the sacrament is performed?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2021, 09:18:25 AM »
Quote from: Durango77 on March 16, 2021, 10:04:37 AM
Taught by Trent and numerous church Fathers and a recent example of a high end priest being excommunicated for teaching against it?

That same old lie keeps getting perpetuated that it was taught by "numerous" Church Fathers.  It was not.  5 or 6 Fathers rejected it and only 1 or 2 ARGUABLY held it.  St. Augustine floated the idea in his youth, then later retracted it, while St. Ambrose's oration on Valentinian is ambiguous and can be interpreted in a number of ways (and he elsewhere in his writing rejects BoD).  That's IT in terms of Patristic support for BoD.

Someone already responded to the lie that Fr. Feeney was excommunicate for his theology.

If you want to have a debate, fine, but stop it with the lies.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New St. Alphonsus Quotes on Implicit BOD
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2021, 09:25:08 AM »
Quote from: trad123 on March 16, 2021, 09:55:40 PM

If a jew was to be forcefully baptized, against his will, would he be in the state of justification immєdιαtely after the sacrament is performed?

No.  He would receive the Sacramental character, but would not be in a state of justification.  BOTH are required for salvation (in addition to the grace of final perseverance).

That's another reason to read Trent's teaching as meaning BOTH.  If you receive the LAVER without the VOTUM, then you are not in a state of justification.  And the corollary to this is that if you have the VOTUM without the LAVER, then you are not in a state of justification.

There's no way this can be read as a teaching on BoD.  Where is any mention of BoB, if that's the intent?  If Trent had been teaching here the "Three Baptisms," then there would certainly have been a mention of BoB.  That is clearly NOT the intent of Trent's teaching here.
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