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Author Topic: New SSPX website guidlines  (Read 4374 times)

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Offline Emerentiana

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Offline Stubborn

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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 07:23:59 AM »
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  • Sounds like complete bs to me.

    From the link: “The SSPX does not reject Vatican II in its entirety: on the contrary, Bishop Fellay has stated that the society accepts 95% of its teachings.”

    Can anyone confirm this?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Oremus

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    « Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 01:13:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Sounds like complete bs to me.

    From the link: “The SSPX does not reject Vatican II in its entirety: on the contrary, Bishop Fellay has stated that the society accepts 95% of its teachings.”

    Can anyone confirm this?


    I've actually heard this before. I will dig up my source and get back to you.

    Offline brainglitch

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    « Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 02:04:52 PM »
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  • Quote
    Sounds like complete bs to me.


    TIA has a lot of that; for example, Guimares' (sic) pathetic attempts to justify the invasion of Iraq as a just retaliation for 9/11.

    Quote
    From the link: “The SSPX does not reject Vatican II in its entirety: on the contrary, Bishop Fellay has stated that the society accepts 95% of its teachings.”


    Sounds like something taken out of context...the problem with Vatican II was not that it was every single thing was 100% pure evil. If it were, it would not have been accepted so easily. Rather, there were modernist things intermingled with Traditional things, in such a clever way that trying to find the truth amidst the error is like hacking your way through the jungle....It would be far easier to simply burn the jungle, instead of trying to salvage Vatican II. Simply admit it was a mistake....which probably won't happen until the last of the Vat II generation has died off.

    (Coincidentally, this is why a deal with the Vatican is probably not a good idea right now. I don't think it's necessary that the Church be 100% trad again before the SSPX comes back.....we won't get anywhere that way. Simply wait until the Vat II generation has gone away. Most of the younger prelates are more sympathetic to Tradition. What we are seeing in the Vatican are the first cracks in the walls of Jericho....don't send the troops in until they start to tumble. I hope Bp. Fellay just waits a little longer.....who cares about an excommunication? It's the death throes of the monster know as Vatican II. Just wait a little longer....)

    Offline Emerentiana

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    « Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 02:43:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Oremus
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Sounds like complete bs to me.

    From the link: “The SSPX does not reject Vatican II in its entirety: on the contrary, Bishop Fellay has stated that the society accepts 95% of its teachings.”

    Can anyone confirm this?


    I've actually heard this before. I will dig up my source and get back to you.


    The source is the SSPX website.    Here is the link:

    http://sspx.org/theological_commission/is_recognizing_sspx_questioning_the_council_4-19-2012.htm

       
    Is recognizing the SSPX questioning the Council?  
    4-19-2012

     

    From the recent media flurry about Bishop Fellay’s anticipated (and now given) second response to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith concerning the Doctrinal Preamble, there is a general noteworthy item. Many journalists have recognized that this event concerning the SSPX is of great importance to the entire Church, labeling it a “historic moment”, one “crucial for the Church”, and even a “turning point” which will have long-lasting effects for the Catholic world. One excellent commentary on this aspect comes from the keyboard of Inside the Vatican’s editor, Dr. Robert Moynihan:

     

    But more important than the effect on the historical judgment of this pontificate, the way this matter is resolved will have a profound impact on the Church herself, on how she views herself and her mission in the world, in time, in history, and, therefore, on how the Church orients her activity and life with regard to the secular world outside of the Church.[1] [sspx.org emphasis]

     

    Dr. Moynihan does not merely stop here - he gives the reason why this will occur:

     

    The matter at issue is the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X… but the deeper question is the Second Vatican Council and how that Council should be interpreted.[2] [sspx.org emphasis]

     

    This gets to the root of the matter: What level of authority does the Second Vatican Council possess? How does one reconcile certain conciliar teachings that are out of sync with the pre-conciliar Magisterium?

     

    Adding to such questionnaires made by Msgr. Brunero Gherardini and Roberto de Mattei, Dr. John Lamont[3] published on Chiesa[4] a careful analysis[5] of the written debate between Rome’s Msgr. Fernando Ocariz[6] and the SSPX’s Fr. Jean-Michel Gleize[7], which also asked similar crucial questions. Dr. Lamont clearly expresses the SSPX’s doctrinal position on Vatican II vis-à-vis the authentic Magisterium:

     

    The first question that occurs to a theologian concerning the SSPX position concerns the issue of the authority of the Second Vatican Council. [Msgr. Ocariz’s article] …seems to claim that a rejection of the authority of Vatican II is the basis for the rift referred to by the Holy See. But for anyone familiar with both the theological position of the SSPX and the climate of theological opinion in the Catholic Church, this claim is hard to understand. The points mentioned by Fr. Gleize are only four of the voluminous teachings of Vatican II. The SSPX does not reject Vatican II in its entirety: on the contrary, Bishop Fellay has stated that the society accepts 95% of its teachings.
     

    With irony Dr. Lamont adds:

     

    This means that the SSPX is more loyal to the teachings of Vatican II than much of the clergy and hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

     

    It is relevant that the texts of Vatican II that are rejected by the SSPX are accepted by the groups [liberals - Ed.] within the Church that reject other teachings of that council.

     

    Continuing his analysis:

     

    One might then suppose that it is these specific texts - on religious liberty, the Church, ecuмenism, and collegiality - that are the problem. The rift between the Holy See and the SSPX arises because the Society rejects these particular elements of Vatican II, not because of an intention on the part of the Holy See to defend Vatican II as a whole…

     

    (…)

     

    The latter group [liberals - Ed.] simply holds that certain doctrines of the Catholic Church are not true. They reject Catholic teaching, full stop. The SSPX, on the other hand, does not claim that the teaching of the Catholic Church is false. Instead, it claims that some of the assertions of Vatican II contradict other magisterial teachings that have greater authority, and hence that accepting the doctrines of the Catholic Church requires accepting these more authoritative teachings and rejecting the small proportion of errors in Vatican II. It asserts that the actual teaching of the Catholic Church is to be found in the earlier and more authoritative statements.

     

    Dr. Lamont raises another question: “how can there be any objection to the SSPX upholding the truth of magisterial pronouncements of great authority?”

     

    This question really answers itself. There can be no such objection. If the position of the SSPX on doctrine itself is to be judged objectionable, it must be claimed that this position is not what these magisterial pronouncements actually teach, and hence that the SSPX falsifies the meaning of these pronouncements. This claim is not easy to sustain, because when these earlier pronouncements were promulgated, they gave rise to a very substantial body of theological work that aimed at their interpretation. The meaning that the SSPX ascribes to them is derived from this body of work, and corresponds to how these pronouncements were understood at the time they were made.

     

    The author then logically asks these final questions:

     

    This fact gives more point and urgency to the third question that occurs to a theologian: what do these pronouncements actually teach, if it is not what the SSPX say that they teach?

     

    ...what is the authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church on the points that are in dispute between the SSPX and the Holy See?

     

    Dr. Lamont concluded his analysis with this statement, underlining the universal significance of the SSPX’s relations with Rome:

     

    The nature of the teaching of the Catholic Church on religious freedom, ecuмenism, the Church, and collegiality, is of great importance to all Catholics. The questions raised by the discussions between the Holy See and the SSPX thus concern the whole Church, not merely the parties to the discussion.

     

    Certainly it is pleasing to read such reflections about the Council’s teachings and the Church’s future, however, more can be done as suggested by Dr. Moynihan:

     

    [Pope] Benedict now finds himself at the center of many very powerful interests who will wish to sway his judgment as he decides this matter. For this reason, he will need our prayers.[8]

     
     


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 04:00:18 PM »
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  • The truth is that one would be hard-pressed to demonstrate that Benedict XVI does not reject supernatural Faith in its entirety.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 04:27:12 PM »
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  • You really have to question the priorities of people who want to be recognized by someone who rejects supernatural Faith in its entirety.

    They care more about Zionist approval, being against "racism" - subverting traditional Catholic views with liberalism than they care about the Catholic Faith.

    More about saying "Madonna" is okay than about praying to the Madonna.

    They are absolutely pestilential.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 08:16:58 PM »
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  • Thanks for the link Emerentiana.

    I guess it only sounded like bs to me.

    This whole thing is a giant fiasco.

    Initially the SSPX were supposed to be in talks with Rome to "convert" them - what ever happened to that?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Emerentiana

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    « Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 08:51:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Thanks for the link Emerentiana.

    I guess it only sounded like bs to me.

    This whole thing is a giant fiasco.

    Initially the SSPX were supposed to be in talks with Rome to "convert" them - what ever happened to that?



    The SSPX calls themselves "Guardians of the faith"   Pride goes before the fall.

    Offline Sede Catholic

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    « Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 09:02:05 PM »
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  • Thank you for posting this, Emerentiana.

    That is a very informative link.

    Tradition in Action are such an excellent traditional Catholic website.

    Often, they really tell things how they are.



    http://www.traditioninaction.org/




    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 05:01:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Thanks for the link Emerentiana.

    I guess it only sounded like bs to me.

    This whole thing is a giant fiasco.

    Initially the SSPX were supposed to be in talks with Rome to "convert" them - what ever happened to that?



    The SSPX calls themselves "Guardians of the faith"   Pride goes before the fall.


    Well, they have been guardians of the faith - I don't have a problem with that title, I, like a lot of folks have a problem with all the gossip on the internet.

    The thing I don't get is why SSPX does not come out and release a statement already. I mean, is the success of "the talks" dependent upon secrecy? It's becoming a flipping scandal for a lot of people already for crying out loud.

    I'm reminded of what Pope St. Pius X said: Wherefore We may no longer be silent, lest We should seem to fail in Our most sacred duty.... IMO, it's time to throw silence out the window and tell everyone where they stand and what's going on already.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline JohnGrey

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    « Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 09:13:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn

    Well, they have been guardians of the faith - I don't have a problem with that title, I, like a lot of folks have a problem with all the gossip on the internet.

    The thing I don't get is why SSPX does not come out and release a statement already. I mean, is the success of "the talks" dependent upon secrecy? It's becoming a flipping scandal for a lot of people already for crying out loud.

    I'm reminded of what Pope St. Pius X said: Wherefore We may no longer be silent, lest We should seem to fail in Our most sacred duty.... IMO, it's time to throw silence out the window and tell everyone where they stand and what's going on already.
     


    The guardians of the faith are the Catholic laity and clergy that keep the entire Deposit of Faith, whether attached to the structures of the Society or not.  And the assignment of such an honorific is historically dangerous in that it provides a seeming imprimatur of legitimacy to future action which may or may not be morally acceptable.  Look at Henry VIII, who was granted the title of Defender of the Faith by HH Leo X for the Henrician Affirmation only to break with Rome and claim leadership of the Church of England.

    And collusion in secrecy has always been the mark of those trying to eclipse the truth with lies.  This was true of Judas' compact with the Sanhedrin, the ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic conspiracy to turn the European civil state against the Holy Church, and the Metz Accord which effectively destroyed any hope for the consecration of Russia and ushered in the Apostate Council.  Secrecy is the only means by which lies can compete with the truth; falsehood cannot defeat truth by merit for it is contrary to what is.  It must therefore try to destroy the truth through brute force, and such force requires collusion with malice aforethought.

    Offline VinnyF

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    « Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 02:03:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Sounds like complete bs to me.

    From the link: “The SSPX does not reject Vatican II in its entirety: on the contrary, Bishop Fellay has stated that the society accepts 95% of its teachings.”

    Can anyone confirm this?


    I think ABL signed ALL of those docuмents.

    Offline Emerentiana

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    « Reply #13 on: May 09, 2012, 07:51:10 PM »
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  • John Grey said:

     :applause: :applause:

    Quote
    The guardians of the faith are the Catholic laity and clergy that keep the entire Deposit of Faith, whether attached to the structures of the Society or not.  And the assignment of such an honorific is historically dangerous in that it provides a seeming imprimatur of legitimacy to future action which may or may not be morally acceptable.  Look at Henry VIII, who was granted the title of Defender of the Faith by HH Leo X for the Henrician Affirmation only to break with Rome and claim leadership of the Church of England.

    And collusion in secrecy has always been the mark of those trying to eclipse the truth with lies.  This was true of Judas' compact with the Sanhedrin, the ʝʊdɛօ-Masonic conspiracy to turn the European civil state against the Holy Church, and the Metz Accord which effectively destroyed any hope for the consecration of Russia and ushered in the Apostate Council.  Secrecy is the only means by which lies can compete with the truth; falsehood cannot defeat truth by merit for it is contrary to what is.  It must therefore try to destroy the truth through brute force, and such force requires collusion with malice aforethought.
     


    Thats right, John.  The SSPX singles themselves out as "Guardians of the Faith" and have repeatedly said so.
    There is a large trad world out there besides them, who fight for and believe all of the Sacred truths the Holy Catholic Church teaches.
    NO ONE appointed the Society "Guardians of the Faith".  Certainly not Benedict who views them as schizmatics

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     

    Offline Anthony M

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    « Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 07:00:03 AM »
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  • No TIA are selective. They criticize the SSPX for not being 'Traditional enough' and yet where do they go to Mass? Is it to a Trad Latin Mass? No! - I think they tend to live on another planet at times. Like all self appointed popes.