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Author Topic: New Rite of Ordination  (Read 7841 times)

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Offline SJB

New Rite of Ordination
« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2010, 07:41:45 AM »
Btw, it is hard to imagine the proper matter and form being used in a manner that would not be doing what the Church does, althought I guess it is possible, but I would think this situation would be obvious to those present.

New Rite of Ordination
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2010, 11:46:47 AM »
Quote from: Cristian
Quote from: Alexandria
Sorry to interrupt.

Does anyone know who composed the new Rite of Ordination?

And is it true that it was formulated by the Consilium headed by that dastardly man, Bugnini?


Alexandria: it was composed by Dom Bernard Botte.


The name sounds vaguely familiar.  What do you know about him?

According to something I read yesterday when I was researching this on my own, the 1969  Rite was revamped in 1989.  If I understand what I read correctly, it seems that the only purpose of revising the 1969 Rite was to get rid of anything that was left that resembled the old Rite.

Is this correct?


Offline SJB

New Rite of Ordination
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2010, 12:49:24 PM »
Quote from:  De Salvo
The Bishop of Nesqually had addressed to the Propaganda an inquiry concerning the validity of baptisms conferred by Methodists, against the validity of whose baptisms he alleged an insufficient and adverse intention and consequently-the presumption of invalidity. The Bishop stated that the Methodists held so many errors about the necessity, the power, and the efficacy of the sacrament of Baptism that they considered it merely an indifferent rite which had been entirely omitted in the past and at a later time had been put into use again for the purpose of deceiving the faithful and attempting to show them that their false religion did not differ from the true religion.
.
To this question the Holy Office gave a very detailed answer which is one of the most explicit statements about the intention of doing what the Church does. In substance the reply lays down the following principles:

1. It is a dogma of faith that Baptism administered by anyone, whether a schismatic, a heretic, or even an infidel, must be considered valid, as long as in their administration those things are present by which the sacrament is perfected, namely, due matter, the prescribed form, and the person of the minister with the intention of doing what the Church does. Hence it follows that the peculiar errors which the ministers profess either privately or publicly do not at all affect baptism or any other sacrament.

2. The errors which the heretics profess privately or publicly are not incompatible with that intention which the ministers of the sacraments must have, namely, of doing what the Church does, Those errors in themselves cannot give rise to a general presumption against the validity of the sacraments in general and baptism in particular.

From these principles taken from the decision of the Holy Office it must be concluded that as a general rule the baptisms of heretics are valid in spite of the fact that their ministers hold beliefs entirely incompatible with the Catholic doctrine concerning Baptism, and deny all power of regeneration in that sacrament. Their error does not offer sufficient reason to conclude that they have an insufficient or adverse intention in regard to conferring the sacrament.


New Rite of Ordination
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2010, 01:42:54 PM »
Quote from: Alexandria
Quote from: Cristian
Quote from: Alexandria
Sorry to interrupt.

Does anyone know who composed the new Rite of Ordination?

And is it true that it was formulated by the Consilium headed by that dastardly man, Bugnini?


Alexandria: it was composed by Dom Bernard Botte.


The name sounds vaguely familiar.  What do you know about him?

According to something I read yesterday when I was researching this on my own, the 1969  Rite was revamped in 1989.  If I understand what I read correctly, it seems that the only purpose of revising the 1969 Rite was to get rid of anything that was left that resembled the old Rite.

Is this correct?


The sole articles I read were those of Fr. Cekada and Rama Coomaraswamy.
I never read about the 1989 Rite, but that`d make sense.

Cristian

New Rite of Ordination
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2010, 04:20:09 PM »
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Caminus
So then you agree that the internal intention does matter, which was the whole point of Rev. Raphael De Salvo in his dissertation.  Your qualification doesn't seem to hold water, but so be it.


The internal intention is ALWAYS associated with the ACT of performing the rite of the sacrament. There cannot even be an intention without the external rite being performed.


They are not metaphysically and inseparably united, otherwise Alexander's condemnation of that false opinion would be unintelligible.  They (internal and external intention) usually, under normal circuмstances go hand in hand, thus giving moral certitude with respect to the recipient.  Only under certain strange and theoretical conditions would an internal intention, formulated in defiance of the action taken, vitiate the validity of the sacrament, but it is true nevertheless and this must be affirmed lest we formulate an opinion like that of the heretics who asserted that, for example, even if a priest were to perform a sacramental rite in jest, it wold be valid.