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Author Topic: New book arguing against Sedevacantism  (Read 80866 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #210 on: November 29, 2015, 02:23:35 PM »
Quote from: McCork
Quote from: Stubborn

So as long as you are chiming in on this subject, let's strive to keep this on the same subject and please do as I asked above.


I am helping 2Vermont because I am more familiar with the subject, and asked you a question first. It pertains directly to the subject of the UOM, and you cannot answer it. Because you don't know how to believe with divine and Catholic that which is not solemnly taught by the Church. This also cuts to the very root of your Feeneyism.


First off, you have the same idea of what the UOM is that pretty much all SVs and trads have - namely, your UOM is comprised of a faceless, nameless, timeless and non-universal entity, it is an entity that you cannot define because your UOM is a mystery, something unknowable and changing all the time. It is a thing, something you reference when you need something to support your idea. So you are not helping 2Vermont, you will only add to the confusion that pretty much everyone has.

To her credit, 2Vermont produced an excellent example, one I had never even seen - yet there it is for all to understand who the UOM is and what their criteria is for infallibility. The decree she provided entirely on her own teaches us not only who the UOM actually is, it also clearly explains the criteria for infallibility of the UOM - those criteria are infallible, you cannot change those criteria, those criteria will remain a necessity for infallibility of the UOM till the end of time. Poster Bellator Dei contributed as well when he posed the criteria from Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum - which guess what, agreed with 2Vermont's snip from PPXII. So if you really want to help, then help explain her snip from PPXII by telling her what it teaches, not what you think he meant to say.

You choose to debate the teaching from that dogmatic decree, which per PPXII's own words, certainly enjoyed the protection from error by the Holy Ghost and dictated why we can be certain of it's infallibility whether PPXII defined it or not. Those are the rules, they have always applied and can never change no matter how you would like to alter them to suit your opinion. Sorry but that's how it is no matter what anyone says.

Here below is the quote 2Vermont provided, please go ahead and edit it, perhaps in a different color, to make what YOU say the criteria is. Understand though that when you do this, that this is what everyone has to do every time they reference the Cekadian UOM.  


Quote from: Pope Pius XII

Pope Pius XII refers to the OUM here as part of his declaration on the Assumption of Mary.  The infallible teaching of the Assumption was always taught and believed as part of the infallible OUM:

But those whom "the Holy Spirit has placed as bishops to rule the Church of God" gave an almost unanimous affirmative response to both these questions. This "outstanding agreement of the Catholic prelates and the faithful," affirming that the bodily Assumption of God's Mother into heaven can be defined as a dogma of faith, since it shows us the concordant teaching of the Church's ordinary doctrinal authority and the concordant faith of the Christian people which the same doctrinal authority sustains and directs, thus by itself and in an entirely certain and infallible way, manifests this privilege as a truth revealed by God and contained in that divine deposit which Christ has delivered to his Spouse to be guarded faithfully and to be taught infallibly.

Certainly this teaching authority of the Church, not by any merely human effort but under the protection of the Spirit of Truth, and therefore absolutely without error, carries out the commission entrusted to it, that of preserving the revealed truths pure and entire throughout every age, in such a way that it presents them undefiled, adding nothing to them and taking nothing away from them. For, as the Vatican Council teaches, "the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter in such a way that, by his revelation, they might manifest new doctrine, but so that, by his assistance, they might guard as sacred and might faithfully propose the revelation delivered through the apostles, or the deposit of faith."Thus, from the universal agreement of the Church's ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm proof, demonstrating that the Blessed Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven- which surely no faculty of the human mind could know by its own natural powers, as far as the heavenly glorification of the virginal body of the loving Mother of God is concerned-is a truth that has been revealed by God and consequently something that must be firmly and faithfully believed by all children of the Church. For, as the Vatican Council asserts, "all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."


   

Offline Stubborn

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New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #211 on: November 29, 2015, 02:50:29 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: McCork
My suggestion to you 2Vermont is to refrain from answering until after Stubborn answers my question about the ordinary magisterium of the Vatican Council 1870. Then we will all know that he has no clue about the subject.


I was out all day yesterday and I see that others have chimed in.  I will also be travelling all day so I doubt I will get back to this discussion until early tomorrow morning.  It seems that there are much more qualified folks here anyway.  In the end, I do not think that Stubborn will ever see his errors.  As someone else said, if he believed in the OUM as he should, it would not help his belief in Feeneyism which also goes against the OUM.


Typical cop out. What errors will I never see? All you did is admit that you do not know what you are talking about and that doesn't matter - at the same time you agree with McCork who also does not know what he is talking about - but won't admit it because he has himself convinced that he does.

You posted the errors from PPXII on the Assumption that I wholly believe and demonstrated their meanings for you in great detail, so feel free to explain yourself - how is my belief in the UOM different from PPXII's which you yourself posted?





New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #212 on: November 29, 2015, 04:12:35 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn

First off, you have the same idea of what the UOM is that pretty much all SVs and trads have - namely, your UOM is comprised of a faceless, nameless, timeless and non-universal entity, it is an entity that you cannot define because your UOM is a mystery, something unknowable and changing all the time. It is a thing, something you reference when you need something to support your idea. So you are not helping 2Vermont, you will only add to the confusion that pretty much everyone has.



Okay, so you laid out what you think I believe. Now back to my first question pertaining to what YOU believe in regard to the quote I gave you from the Vatican Council of 1870.


Offline Stubborn

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New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #213 on: November 29, 2015, 04:33:25 PM »
Quote from: McCork
Quote from: Stubborn

First off, you have the same idea of what the UOM is that pretty much all SVs and trads have - namely, your UOM is comprised of a faceless, nameless, timeless and non-universal entity, it is an entity that you cannot define because your UOM is a mystery, something unknowable and changing all the time. It is a thing, something you reference when you need something to support your idea. So you are not helping 2Vermont, you will only add to the confusion that pretty much everyone has.



Okay, so you laid out what you think I believe. Now back to my first question pertaining to what YOU believe in regard to the quote I gave you from the Vatican Council of 1870.



You don't get it. I am not changing the subject for you - and obviously trying to force you to stay on subject is an exercise in futility, which only serves to actually prove that you cannot find any magisterial Church teachings that teach the UOM is always automatically infallible by virtue of them being a bishop or two, or a few saints, or all together or whatever.

Either do what I asked or feel free to start another thread on whatever subject it is that you want to further derail this thread to. I prefer you do what I asked first.


New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #214 on: November 29, 2015, 04:38:07 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: McCork
My suggestion to you 2Vermont is to refrain from answering until after Stubborn answers my question about the ordinary magisterium of the Vatican Council 1870. Then we will all know that he has no clue about the subject.


I was out all day yesterday and I see that others have chimed in.  I will also be travelling all day so I doubt I will get back to this discussion until early tomorrow morning.  It seems that there are much more qualified folks here anyway.  In the end, I do not think that Stubborn will ever see his errors.  As someone else said, if he believed in the OUM as he should, it would not help his belief in Feeneyism which also goes against the OUM.


Typical cop out. What errors will I never see? All you did is admit that you do not know what you are talking about and that doesn't matter - at the same time you agree with McCork who also does not know what he is talking about - but won't admit it because he has himself convinced that he does.

You posted the errors from PPXII on the Assumption that I wholly believe and demonstrated their meanings for you in great detail, so feel free to explain yourself - how is my belief in the UOM different from PPXII's which you yourself posted?





Actually, it's not a cop out.  I think it's a recognition that you will NEVER change your mind because your Feeneyite heresy has blocked you from being able to see the Catholic truth that the UOM is always infallible.  Pius XII does not support your view that the UOM can be fallible.  He states:

This "outstanding agreement of the Catholic prelates and the faithful," affirming that the bodily Assumption of God's Mother into heaven can be defined as a dogma of faith, since it shows us the concordant teaching of the Church's ordinary doctrinal authority and the concordant faith of the Christian people which the same doctrinal authority sustains and directs, thus by itself and in an entirely certain and infallible way, manifests this privilege as a truth revealed by God and contained in that divine deposit which Christ has delivered to his Spouse to be guarded faithfully and to be taught infallibly.

The Church's "concordant teaching of the Church's ordinary doctrinal authority" is the OUM.  It includes EVERYTHING we must believe that has been taught since the beginning of the Church.  He is saying quite clearly that the Assumption of Mary was already taught by the Church for centuries..in its OUM!  Everything taught by the OUM is automatically without error.  

All of the bishops and pope at Vatican II (what you believe is the true OUM) contradicted things that were always condemned by the infallible OUM prior to Vatican II.  How does the OUM contradict itself?

McCork does have an important question for you and you should answer it; that is, if you're not "copping out".