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Yes, but this "Conciliar" Church at some point in time had to be the Catholic Church (let's say right before the Council, October 10, 1962). It is unrealistic to say that 2600 Catholic Bishops entered the Council being the True Church of Christ and came out of the Council as apostates, NOT being the True Church of Christ anymore. Either a substantial change happened to the Church of Christ during the Council or did not. If it did not (not really, but just appears as if), then the pre / post conciliar Church is one and the same and there is continuity, at least materially. If it did, then the True Church of Christ (2600 bishops entering the Council on October 10, 1962) defected, which we know is impossible.  

 "By adding the additional step that the legitimate hierarchy morphed into a New Church, and that the New Church defected, would not avoid the same conclusion that the legitimate hierarchy defected".

Hang on, you are heading the right direction, but veering off track.

VATICAN II was a substantial change. The changes introduced by IT are substantial Change. The Church herself remains unchanged.

What this demonstrates is that VATICAN II cannot come from legitimate magisterial authority. It is therefore not an act of the Church, and not an act of Christ reigning in his Church.

Now, THERE WAS NO MASS EPISCOPAL DEFECTION. I want to be clear. There WERE many bishops who signed out of confusion. But they all walked out bishops, they all walked out occupying their sees. The single exception would be Paul VI.

He Formally was stripped of his authority and his jurisdiction. Why? Because he promulgated Public Heresy.

Nevertheless, he materially retained the Papal Office, but, he placed an obstacle between the office and the authority: Heresy.

Since he no longer willed the good of the Church, and he proved he did not objectively have the good of the Church in mind, through his heresy, he was formally stripped of jurisdiction.

SO, the question you are asking is :

When Vatican II ended, where was the Church?

Where she had always been:

But she was now formally headless.

AS the years would roll by, the heresies from Vatican II, resulting from its implementation, would creep through each diocese and eviscerate it.

BUT those who would remain faithful to tradition, who would call the heresy heresy, who separated themselves from these perversions, THEY are the ones who retained the Catholic faith.

The 7000 whom God had reserved who had not bowed their knees to Ba'al, that was the Traditionalists.

The laity who are stuck within the Novus Ordo establishment however, are, and remain, through their general goodwill, Catholics, since no canonical act has ever severed them from the Church. And the "Bishops" retain their material offices through common factual error, and as a result, the Church supplies jurisdiction to these various elections of various bishops. Ecclesia Supplet. JURISDICTION, NOT GRACE.

The same with the Cardinals. There is this really ridiculous cry of "IF THERE IS NO POPE THERE ARE NO CARDINALS!"

Not true. These men who are designated through election to the Papacy, they possess a valid election, but their heresy (from willfully implementing and acting upon Vatican II, the Novus Ordo Mass and apostasy, from ecuмenical activity) is an obstacle to the exercise of Jurisdiction.

Now, the Cardinals and the "Popes" are of the same mindset. So, they approach him, anticipating him to be Pope, and make an error of FACT. Making that error, they receive from the "Pope" the Cardinals hat.

Because this is a common error of Fact, and Even a LEGAL Common Error, the Church Supplies Jurisdiction, and they obtain the Cardinals Hat Validly and Canonically, even from a Formally Heretical Pope who has no Ordinary Jurisdiction due to heresy.

So, we have many structures that remain intact due to Common Factual Error, and we have simultaneously many Heretical Bishops, MOST of which are Doubtfully Consecrated as Priests and Bishops.

THIS gets into the Fact that Pope Pius XII IRREFORMABLY set the Form for the Ordination of Bishops Priests and Deacons in "Sacramentum Ordinis." This means, it is literally an IRREFORMABLE act, and the fact that the reform of it was attempted simply proves those trying to do it are not who they say they are. The Church cannot do this.

See for yourself, he is invoking Papal Infallibility:

"Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects - namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit - and which are accepted and used by the Church in that sense. It follows as a consequence that We should declare, and in order to remove all controversy and to preclude doubts of conscience, We do by Our Apostolic Authority declare, and if there was ever a lawful disposition to the contrary We now decree that at least in the future the traditio instrumentorum is not necessary for the validity of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy.  

5. As to the matter and form in the conferring of each Order, We of Our same supreme Apostolic Authority decree and provide as follows: In the Ordination to the Diaconate, the matter is the one imposition of the hand of the Bishop which occurs in the rite of that Ordination. The form consists of the words of the "Preface," of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:" etc.
...

These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same.

You can't really BE more forceful...

This is an irreformable act, one that cannot be undone, Rome has spoken. YET, Paul VI undid it. Further prof that he simply could no be Pope.

SO, as the years wind on, and as these priests are ordained in dubious rites, and as bishops are consecrated in Profoundly doubtful consecrations, the number of true priests rapidly dwindles.

YET, we know, and in fact have made lists of bishops who are still alive from Pope Pius XII, John XXIII, and Paul VI. There are Very many spread all over the world.

In addition, we have the ordinations by Archbishops Thuc and Lefebvre, and

Archbishop Thuc apparently was granted a Motu Proprio by Pius XI where he didn't NEED Papal permission to consecrate Bishops.
http://holyrosarychapel.vpweb.com/ARCHBISHOP-THUC.html# (Photos of docuмents).

And the Church Retains the Passive Exercise of Her Universal Ordinary Magisterium.

But the Novus Ordo is not the Church. Its CHARTER was Vatican II. Its Membership was an exponential swelling from 1965 onward to the present day. The LEAVING that took place was the Silent Apostasy JPII spoke of, from Tradition, to Protestantism. From Catholic, to Anglican.

The Novus Ordo Chruch is basically the Church of England now. It has the High Church and the Low Church, for those with different tastes. It has extreme liberals, and extreme conservatices, and very borad-minded priests, ALL under the Vatican II umbrella. It followed the same program of Reform as England: "Make the Mass Vernacular, introduce small changes, insist on the priority of fellowship." It's exactly what happened. The English Reformation is a near perfect Model of the Novus Ordo.

But Cantarella, don't be so surprised, it was FORESEEN by Marie Julie Jahenny, who had approbation from her local Bishop. She literally saw this happening and said so.

"On 10th of May 1904, She (Our Lady) denotes the new clergy and its
Mass :

« They won't stop at this hateful and sacrilegious road. They will go
further TO COMPROMISE ALL AT ONCE AND IN ONE GO, THE HOLY
CHURCH, THE CLERGY AND THE FAITH OF MY CHILDREN... » She
announces the « DISPERSION OF THE PASTORS » by the Church itself ;
real pastors who will be replaced by others formed by hell, initiated in
all vices, ALL INIQUITIES, PERFIDIOUS, WHO WILL COVER SOULS
WITH FILTH... NEW PREACHERS OF NEW SACRAMENTS, NEW
TEMPLES, NEW BAPTISMS, NEW CONFRATERNITIES. . . >

She says LOTS more too:

1881: THE GREATER NUMBER [OF BISHOPS] ARE READY TO GIVE THEIR FAITH TO SAVE THEIR BODIES... THE SUFFERING THEY CAUSE (the Church) WILL
NEVER BE REPAIRED. IN A SHORT TIME THE PASTORS OF THE
CHURCH WILL HAVE SPREAD SCANDALS EVERYWHERE AND WILL
HAVE GIVEN THE LAST SWORD THRUST TO HOLY CHURCH. -

She frequently announced that the enemies of the Church would
penetrate into its bosom "AND PERPETRATE HORRIBLE SCANDALS
AND THRUST THE SWORD INTO THE HEART OF THE CHURCH.
RAGE HAS NEVER BEEN GREATER."
She assisted at a dialogue between Our Lord and Lucifer and the
latter said
:
I will attack the Church. I will overthrow the Cross, I will decimate
the people, I will deposit a great weakness of Faith in hearts. THERE
WILL ALSO BE A GREAT DENIAL OF RELIGION. FOR A TIME I WILL
BE MASTER OF ALL THINGS, EVERYTHING WILL BE UNDER MY
CONTROL, EVEN YOUR TEMPLE AND ALL YOUR PEOPLE,
.
« Saint Michael says that Satan will have possession of everything for
some time and that he will reign completely over everything ; that all
goodness, Faith, Religion WILL BE BURIED IN THE TOMB, . . Satan and
his own will triumph with joy, but after this triumph, the Lord will in
His turn gather His own people and WILL REIGN AND TRIUMPH OVER
EVIL AND WILL RAISE UP FROM THE TOMB THE BURIED CHURCH,
the prostrated Cross...

Read it for yourself, page 40.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B72oYysTeSi1MHVvYkRlZ3pfVTQ

In fact, read the whole book. We're there.

Best for last:

On 27th of November 1902 and 10th of May 1904, Our Lord and Our
Lady announced the - New Mass >. Listen :
- I give you a WARNING. The disciples who are not of My Gospel are
now working hard to remake according to their ideas AND UNDER
THE INFLUENCE OF THE ENEMY OF SOULS A MASS THAT CONTAINS
WORDS THAT ARE ODIOUS IN MY SIGHT.

When the fatal hour arrives when the faith of my priests is put to the
test, it will be (these texts) that will be CELEBRATED IN THIS SECOND
PERIOD... THE FIRST PERIOD IS (THE ONE) OF MY PRIESTHOOD
WHICH EXISTS SINCE ME. THE SECOND is (the one) of the
persecution WHEN THE ENEMIES OF THE FAITH and of Holy Religion
(will impose their formulas) in the book of the second celebration...
THESE INFAMOUS SPIRITS ARE THOSE WHO CRUCIFIED ME and are
awaiting THE KINGDOM OF THE NEW MESSIAH >

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: 2Vermont

Again, where is the Church teaching that the Ordinary Universal Magisterium is ever fallible..under any circuмstances?

I tell you what 2V, since you are so sure of your Cekadian inspired belief, why don't you just show your knowledge on this subject and actually contribute something useful, like produce a teaching or lesson from the Church - either papal, solemn or magisterial - which accurately reflects your belief as regards the infallibility of the UOM.

After producing either papal, solemn or magisterial teachings, then feel free to post theological explanations of those teachings if you need to.

Pope Pius XII refers to the OUM here as part of his declaration on the Assumption of Mary.  The infallible teaching of the Assumption was always taught and believed as part of the infallible OUM:

But those whom "the Holy Spirit has placed as bishops to rule the Church of God" gave an almost unanimous affirmative response to both these questions. This "outstanding agreement of the Catholic prelates and the faithful," affirming that the bodily Assumption of God's Mother into heaven can be defined as a dogma of faith, since it shows us the concordant teaching of the Church's ordinary doctrinal authority and the concordant faith of the Christian people which the same doctrinal authority sustains and directs, thus by itself and in an entirely certain and infallible way, manifests this privilege as a truth revealed by God and contained in that divine deposit which Christ has delivered to his Spouse to be guarded faithfully and to be taught infallibly.

Note the following criteria as dictated by PPXII in the above part of your quote:

1) The reason PPXII gives as grounds to define this dogma, is because Our Lady's Assumption into heaven was "an almost unanimous" and "concordant teaching" of  "Catholic prelates and faithful" - which means it's been taught by virtually all the Catholic hierarchy since the time of the Apostles. This is the criteria right here. This is it.

"Almost unanimous" means what it says.

What "almost unanimous" does *not* mean, is 'one or more of bishops, theologians, saints, Canon Law, or Catechisms', these things comprise the Cekadian OUM and his OUM are always automatically infallible - otherwise they loose their offices ipso facto.  

2) PPXII confirms that due to #1 above itself, the Assumption was already dogma even before he defined it and because of #1, we can be certain that the Assumption is a revealed truth, contained in the deposit of faith.

 Certainly this teaching authority of the Church, not by any merely human effort but under the protection of the Spirit of Truth, and therefore absolutely without error, carries out the commission entrusted to it, that of preserving the revealed truths pure and entire throughout every age, in such a way that it presents them undefiled, adding nothing to them and taking nothing away from them. For, as the Vatican Council teaches, "the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter in such a way that, by his revelation, they might manifest new doctrine, but so that, by his assistance, they might guard as sacred and might faithfully propose the revelation delivered through the apostles, or the deposit of faith."Thus, from the universal agreement of the Church's ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm proof, demonstrating that the Blessed Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven- which surely no faculty of the human mind could know by its own natural powers, as far as the heavenly glorification of the virginal body of the loving Mother of God is concerned-is a truth that has been revealed by God and consequently something that must be firmly and faithfully believed by all children of the Church. For, as the Vatican Council asserts, "all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Note that the Holy Ghost is specifically *not* promised to manifest new doctrine, which is what V2's Novus Ordo is, a new doctrine.

The Holy Ghost *is* promised "so that, by his assistance, they might guard as sacred and might faithfully propose the revelation delivered through the apostles, or the deposit of faith." Which is to say that if the teachings have not been unanimously taught since the time of the apostles, which means that if the teachings are not from the deposit of faith, protection from error by the Holy Ghost is not promised.

"all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

We are not and never were and never will be bound to believe the NO because it is not contained in Scripture or tradition, nor has it ever been proposed by the Church either solemnly or in it's OUM as divinely revealed truths which must be believed.

Rather, the NO was perpetrated and forced upon the lethargic faithful population who for many decades were taught to believe that no matter what came out of Rome, it was always automatically infallible, which is what Fr. Cekada was taught, which is why he teaches such a thing which he in turn uses to confuse the masses and to promulgate SVism.

Quote from: Catholictrue

TO ROB. SISCOE:

You replied by confirming that you believe all of those people who notoriously promote heresies and deny Catholic teaching publicly (such as Kasper) to be members of the Church, since they have not been officially removed.  According to the same principle, you consider all the people at Novus Ordo parishes who even favor women ‘priests’, gαy 'marriage', etc. to be members of the Church, since they have not been declared heretics or officially separated.  Your position has been reduced to its absurdity.

You then erect a straw man, perhaps to shift the focus away from these considerations, by referencing Cekada.  I did not reference him or base my comments on him.  Rather, I pointed out that the procedures instituted in ecclesiastical law are not required by divine law to recognize heretics.  That’s a fact.  Your response indicates that you don’t agree and that you don’t understand.  That means that you actually think that one must always be declared a heretic by a Church authority and in ecclesiastical law to be considered a heretic.  That is utter nonsense (as the examples listed above about women 'priests', etc. illustrate).  It shows how flawed and warped your understanding of these matters are.  

You also, at least so far, did not respond to whether your book is approved by your ‘ordinary’ and, if not, why not?  Also, why do you feature endorsements from independent priests and from an independent bishop, as if that means something, when your book’s thesis is that it’s forbidden under pain of condemnation to separate from the the visible social unit without a declaration.

This appears to be the anti-sedevacantist go-to when they can't answer a question.

I've seen just such a thing on the bellarmine forums when a staunch sedevacantist was trying to provide the proof that the SSPX has a heretical/blasphemous position and John Lane kept trying to force the discussion to something Fr. Cekada said somewhere else.