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Author Topic: New book arguing against Sedevacantism  (Read 73345 times)

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Offline RobS

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New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #105 on: November 26, 2015, 12:30:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I

    Syllogism 1:

    1. The Church is indefectible. (Dogma)
    2. But Vatican II has defected through proclaiming heresy. (Fact)
    3. Therefore the Authority proclaiming it is illegitimate. (Necessary Conclusion)


    The follow revised syllogism is what your syllogism necessarily entails:

    1. The Church is indefectible. (Dogma)
    2. But at Vatican II the Church defected by proclaiming heresy.
    3. Therefore, the indefectible Church defected. (Necessary Conclusion)

    Comment: It is not possible for the Bishops of the world to defect at a council. This would be contrary to the attribute of indefectibility.   If the Church’s legitimate hierarchy met in Rome in 1962, and then defected sometime over the next three years during the council, it would mean that the Church’s hierarchy defected; you cannot simply claim that the hierarchy morphed into a New Church and it is the New Church that defected.  By adding the additional step that the legitimate hierarchy morphed into a New Church, and that the New Church defected, would not avoid the same conclusion that the legitimate hierarchy defected.

    The defect in your syllogism is in the minor premise.  Since Vatican II defined no dogmas, it did not violate infallibility, nor did it defect, as you claim.  If it would have violated infallibility, the gates of hell would have prevailed against the Church, and, consequently, Christ would have failed in his promises.  

    We address at length the erroneous claim that Vatican II should have been covered by the Church’s infallibility by virtue of the ordinary and universal Magisterium. And if you believe the term “Supreme Ordinary Magisterium” is equivalent to the “Ordinary and Universal Magisterium,” and that anything that comes from the “Supreme Ordinary Magisterium” (even when not proposed definitively) must necessarily be infallible, please cite your source.

    In the book, you will find a citation affirming that the Supreme Magisterium is not, per se, infallible.  The citation in question also states that teachings of the Supreme Magisterium can be resisted when there is sufficient reason to conclude that it is contrary to what the Church teaches.

    Quote from: Gregory I
    Syllogism 2:

    1. The Authority Promulgating Vatican II is Not Catholic
    2. But Paul VI promulgated Vatican II.
    3. Therefore Paul VI is not Catholic.


    Your major is nothing but an assertion of your own. Explain why the authority promulgating Vatican II is not Catholic?  If you say because it violated infallibility, you are mistaken; if you say (as you imply in your post) that it is impossible for authority to promulgate error, you are confusing authority with infallibility, and teaching what the Church herself has never taught.  Please cite a source saying that authority in the Church is always infallible and can never err.  In the book you will find plenty of citations showings that authority is not, per se, infallible.  The former is habitual while the latter is not.  Infallibility is only habitual in the sense that it will always remain in the Church; not in the sense that the charism is active everything authority is exercised.

    Your minor is correct, Paul VI promulgated Vatican II.  

    Your conclusion is based on your faulty major, which is due to 1) an erroneous notion of infallibility, and 2) equating infallibility with authority.        

    Quote from: Gregory I

    Syllogism 3:

    1. Paul VI is not Catholic.
    2. Only a Catholic can be Pope
    3. Therefore Paul VI is not Pope.


    Your major that Paul VI is (was) not a Catholic is an assertion that was not shared by the bishops of the Church at the time.  Paul VI was a member of the Church in good standing when he was elected and when he ratified Vatican II.  This means that your private judgment that he was not Catholic is contrary to the Church’s public judgment.  Without question, Paul VI was not a public heretic according to the Church’s judgment at the time.  

    Furthermore, Paul VI was accepted peacefully and universally by the Church, which is an infallible sign of his legitimacy.  If you deny that Paul VI was the pope, you are forced to deny the theologically certain opinion (dogmatic fact) which holds that a pope who is peacefully and universally recognized as pope is, in fact a true pope.

    The errors implicit in all of your syllogisms are explained at great length in the book.  

    Offline Amakusa

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #106 on: November 26, 2015, 02:03:18 PM »
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  • What you are saying is perfectly true, RobS, and we have explained it to them a hundred times, but they simply do not want to accept that they are wrong.

    However, there is a difference between the situation of John XXIII and Paul VI in one hand, and Luciani and his successors in another hand. The latter have not been peacefully accepted by the Church, since the turmoil of the new mass already existed when they were elected.

    Where can we buy the book of John Salza?


    Offline RobS

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #107 on: November 26, 2015, 02:14:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    You Must admit that the CONTENT of Vatican II is infallible. For it has been Promulgated by a Pope, accepted by all the Bishops, preached and acted upon, has been placed in Catechisms and has been made the Ordinary Universal teaching of all the Church.


    Gregory I,

    I’ll answer for John.  The ordinary and universal Magisterium (OUM) is an organ of infallibility, but there are conditions for the infallibility of the OUM, just as there are conditions for infallibility of the Pope.  If you find out what the conditions for the infallibility of the OUM are, you will know at once that Vatican II did not meet them (at least not one of them).  And don’t look for these conditions in the article written by John Daly, because you won’t find them there. It is precisely because Mr. Daly doesn’t know the conditions that he mistakenly believes Vatican II should have been infallible by the OUM.  We address the conditions for the infallibility of the OUM in chapter 14.  You can read the first two pages of chapter 14 here. http://trueorfalsepope.com/True%20or%20False%20Pope%20-%20Sneak%20Peak.pdf


    Offline RobS

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #108 on: November 26, 2015, 02:16:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Amakusa
    What you are saying is perfectly true, RobS, and we have explained it to them a hundred times, but they simply do not want to accept that they are wrong.

    However, there is a difference between the situation of John XXIII and Paul VI in one hand, and Luciani and his successors in another hand. The latter have not been peacefully accepted by the Church, since the turmoil of the new mass already existed when they were elected.

    Where can we buy the book of John Salza?


    We will be taking pre-orders next week; the official release will be a few weeks later.  Here is a link to where it can be ordered:  http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/

    Offline RobS

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #109 on: November 26, 2015, 02:21:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    However, PUBLIC heretics fall from their office and lose jurisdiction ipso facto, as Bellarmine says above.


    Gregory I,

    Was Bellarmine referring to a public heretic (a “manifest heretic”) according to the authoritative judgment of the Church, or according to the private judgment of individual Catholics, which is contrary to the judgment of the Church?  If you believe Bellarmine meant that a prelate loses his office if a Catholic in the street personally believes he is a manifest heretic, while the Church herself continues to recognize him as a member of the Church in good standing, please provide a citation to support your assertion.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #110 on: November 26, 2015, 02:33:19 PM »
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  • Going back to the fact that the book is seven hundred pages:

    I can't see any reason that this should be the case.  There simply isn't enough material to refute, such that it would require so lengthy a work.  So, what I'm anticipating:

    An excessive amount of time, effort, and resources spent refuting certain sedevacantist personalities and certain unique views held by these sedevacantists.  Examples would include:

    -The Dimond Brothers
    -Saint Gertrude's & Most Holy Trinity Seminary
    -Home aloners
    -Conclavists

    Each of these groups has unique views on at least a particular issue.  So, time will be spent "showing" that sedevacantism leads (logically) to certain errors: perhaps (e.g.) Feeneyism, sectarianism, "non-una cuмism," deprivation of sacraments, schism, cults, and a general lack of charity.

    Of course, even taken collectively, these sedevacantist "types" and their particular pet issues still make up an insignificant numerical minority.  None of the above-mentioned errors are part of sedevacantism as such, nor are they required sub-conclusions of sedevacantism.

    Sedevacantism is a very simple thesis: the men who have claimed the papacy since Vatican II, at least starting with Paul VI and no later than 1965, are not popes of the Catholic Church.  That is what sedevacantism is, and that's what a refutation of it should seek to disprove.  

    Other methods which will likely pad page count:

    -Careful construction of strawmen followed utter demolition.  This was already mentioned in part earlier in this post.
    -Excessive extrapolation and stretching application of half a dozen quotes from early twentieth-century theologians.  
    -Personal and unfounded conclusions and anecdotes (such as, "St. Robert Bellarmine never imagined our situation today when he wrote as he did").
    -Lots and lots and lots of focus on canon law, which is only a supporting premise to the sedevacantist thesis.  Concomitant to this, (though possibly deserving of its own hash-mark) he will argue that "the Church's law" forbids Catholics from "judging the pope" and essentially say, at least at some point, that sedevacantism "may" be true, but we cannot hold the thesis because the Church forbids it.  (Just in case anyone was wondering, the Church has never forbidden her children from assenting to reality).
    -A "history" of sedevacantism (which I don't find objectionable as such).

    So, when all's said and done, I suspect that this will merely be an index/encyclopedia of all "arguments" against sedevacantism to date.  There will be no new arguments, no new information.  The seven hundred pages will be a conglomeration of different strawmen, non-sequiturs, and muddying of waters.  

    One final thought: if I held the R&R position, I wouldn't be particularly excited about this book.  Indult traditionalists tend to inadvertently refute R&R when they argue against sedevacantism.  Their understanding of the papacy's nature is typically pretty sound, and a big part of their refutations against sedevacantism relies on "proving" that the Vatican II popes haven't "actually" taught any error.  Of course, this is doing violence on reality but its really at the heart of their argument-- if it wasn't, they couldn't take two steps.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #111 on: November 26, 2015, 02:41:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: RobS
    Quote from: Gregory I
    However, PUBLIC heretics fall from their office and lose jurisdiction ipso facto, as Bellarmine says above.


    Gregory I,

    Was Bellarmine referring to a public heretic (a “manifest heretic”) according to the authoritative judgment of the Church, or according to the private judgment of individual Catholics, which is contrary to the judgment of the Church?  If you believe Bellarmine meant that a prelate loses his office if a Catholic in the street personally believes he is a manifest heretic, while the Church herself continues to recognize him as a member of the Church in good standing, please provide a citation to support your assertion.


    Funny, Mr. Siscoe.  I think you've somehow incorporated at least three of the angles I've just mentioned in one paragraph.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #112 on: November 26, 2015, 03:08:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: 2Vermont

    And you will not find any papal teachings that teach the UOM is fallible - at least I haven't. You will however find teachings of when the UOM *is* infallible, I gave you a link for that.

    I already told you you need to look it up on your own. I gave you the link so you have no reasonable excuse not to. But as I said, first you'd need to accept dogmatic decrees as the supreme infallible authority, as the final word - and that they are to be understood as declared. This is a must.  Until you can do that, there really is no need for you to even bother. There really isn't.

    Just think 2Vermont, you could walk into virtually any NO seminary today and for the next 6 or 8 years, you could study and learn from the exact same NO books that Fr. Cekada learned from.

    Do you wish you could do such a thing so as to gain the same education and garner the same knowledge as him? If you were able to do such a thing, you could earn the same Bachelor's Degree in NO Theology as him as well - now isn't that something to strive for if you were willing and able? Perhaps you might wish you had those same NO Theology books at home so you could simply study from them at your convenience.

    Well, that's the reality of the situation, you could do exactly that if you had the gumption. His preachings about SVism, UOM / infallibility and etc. are laced with those things he learned during his NO formation - so no matter what you actually choose to embrace about SVism/UOM/infallibility and etc., understand where is preachinings get their roots from.  

    One example to show that the Cekadian version of papal infallibility and UOM infallibility comes from his NO formation is to note that Cekadian version consists of the errors spread by the living UOM, while saying the UOM is automatically infallible - therefore they are not the UOM. That's right up there with the NO trumpeting that because V2 was the new springtime, they are rebuilding the Church by closing 80% of the churches.

    The point is, it's all Novus Ordo theology, it's all a part of the plan devised by the modernists to destroy the Church from within. It is how they were able to take over the Churches, destroy the altars, replace the Mass and etc. - all because everyone, including Fr. Cekada initially at least, was duped into accepting the changes because "the pope/bishop/priest/UOM/etc. cannot err so it must be ok".  


    Gee, Stubborn, if you are stating that the OUM can be fallible under *any* circuмstances, then you have to be able to find Church teaching to support that.  Thanks for admitting that there is no such teaching.  The Church has never taught that it is fallible because, well, it never is fallible.

    You need to come to terms with that fact.  If you are claiming that the Vatican II hierarchy is the authentic OUM, then you need to explain how it has promulgated error in its teaching to the Faithful, both in Vatican II and in its subsequent teachings throughout the world to include its Code of Canon Law and its Catechism.


    You either do not read what I have written, which is what I suspect, or purposely make false accusations in your efforts to hang on to your error.  

    I hope that this 700 page book coming out will be worth the time for you to read because if it is, it will probably take you reading all 700 pages to unscramble your novus ordo thinking during your years of novus ordo formation.

    Until then, perhaps you could concentrate on accepting dogmatic decrees as the supreme infallible authority, as the final word - and that they are to be understood as declared. Again, this is a must.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #113 on: November 26, 2015, 03:18:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: RobS
    Quote from: Gregory I
    You Must admit that the CONTENT of Vatican II is infallible. For it has been Promulgated by a Pope, accepted by all the Bishops, preached and acted upon, has been placed in Catechisms and has been made the Ordinary Universal teaching of all the Church.


    Gregory I,

    I’ll answer for John.  The ordinary and universal Magisterium (OUM) is an organ of infallibility, but there are conditions for the infallibility of the OUM, just as there are conditions for infallibility of the Pope.  If you find out what the conditions for the infallibility of the OUM are, you will know at once that Vatican II did not meet them (at least not one of them).  And don’t look for these conditions in the article written by John Daly, because you won’t find them there. It is precisely because Mr. Daly doesn’t know the conditions that he mistakenly believes Vatican II should have been infallible by the OUM.  We address the conditions for the infallibility of the OUM in chapter 14.  You can read the first two pages of chapter 14 here. http://trueorfalsepope.com/True%20or%20False%20Pope%20-%20Sneak%20Peak.pdf



    The problem is that the SVs not only believe the living UOM is automatically infallible no matter what they do and say, they believe this to be the case always and everywhere.............except in the case of V2, at V2, "the infallible UOM taught error, which can only mean they were not the UOM" - - - if that is not NO confused thinking then nothing is.

    For Svs, there are no conditions or criteria to be met except one - the only condition is for them (SVs are not ever really sure exactly who "them" even is) to all, or most of them, or perhaps a majority of them or at least some of them to teach the same thing.  







    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline RobS

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #114 on: November 26, 2015, 05:01:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Going back to the fact that the book is seven hundred pages:

    I can't see any reason that this should be the case.  There simply isn't enough material to refute, such that it would require so lengthy a work.  


    The book addresses more than just Sedevacantism, but in order to sufficiently address all of the arguments presented in defense of Sedevacantism, it requires a lot of material.

    This is because most of the arguments presented by Sedevacantists are rooted in ignorance of theology, which then leads to false conclusion.  For example, John Daly's ignorance of the conditions required for a teaching to be infallible by virtue of the ordinary and universal magisterium.  Due to the extend of ignorance, and the legions of false conclusion and errors of the Sedevacantists apologists, it was necessary to cover the theology thoroughly.  This was the only way to sufficiently refute the errors used to defend Sedevacantism.  

    Offline RobS

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #115 on: November 26, 2015, 05:27:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: RobS
    Quote from: Gregory I
    However, PUBLIC heretics fall from their office and lose jurisdiction ipso facto, as Bellarmine says above.


    Gregory I,

    Was Bellarmine referring to a public heretic (a “manifest heretic”) according to the authoritative judgment of the Church, or according to the private judgment of individual Catholics, which is contrary to the judgment of the Church?  If you believe Bellarmine meant that a prelate loses his office if a Catholic in the street personally believes he is a manifest heretic, while the Church herself continues to recognize him as a member of the Church in good standing, please provide a citation to support your assertion.


    Funny, Mr. Siscoe.  I think you've somehow incorporated at least three of the angles I've just mentioned in one paragraph.



    There are indeed many angles used to defend Sedevacantism.  It was necessary to address all of them, even if that seems to bother you personally.  

    The Sedevacantists are similar to Protestants in the sense that when you answer one argument, they shift gears to another; then, when you answer that one they move on to yet another argument, eventually returning to the first.  That is why it was necessary to address all of them all in one place.  

    But it is understandable why a Sedevacantists would not like having all of their argument addressed and answered in one place.  How will they shift from one argument to the next when they are all refuted?  So your annoyance over this is not a surprise.


    Offline Gregory I

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #116 on: November 26, 2015, 05:31:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: RobS
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: RobS
    Quote from: Gregory I
    However, PUBLIC heretics fall from their office and lose jurisdiction ipso facto, as Bellarmine says above.


    Gregory I,

    Was Bellarmine referring to a public heretic (a “manifest heretic”) according to the authoritative judgment of the Church, or according to the private judgment of individual Catholics, which is contrary to the judgment of the Church?  If you believe Bellarmine meant that a prelate loses his office if a Catholic in the street personally believes he is a manifest heretic, while the Church herself continues to recognize him as a member of the Church in good standing, please provide a citation to support your assertion.


    Funny, Mr. Siscoe.  I think you've somehow incorporated at least three of the angles I've just mentioned in one paragraph.



    There are indeed many angles used to defend Sedevacantism.  It was necessary to address all of them, even if that seems to bother you personally.  

    The Sedevacantists are similar to Protestants in the sense that when you answer one argument, they shift gears to another; then, when you answer that one they move on to yet another argument, eventually returning to the first.  That is why it was necessary to address all of them all in one place.  

    But it is understandable why a Sedevacantists would not like having all of their argument addressed and answered in one place.  How will they shift from one argument to the next when they are all refuted?  So your annoyance over this is not a surprise.


    Does it address the Cassiciacuм Thesis?

    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #117 on: November 26, 2015, 05:37:07 PM »
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  • Mr Salza,

        With all due respect to your legal practice, your attempt, and such a lengthy attempt, at refuting Sedevacantism is

    really more telling of what the Society is concerned about than you personally. It is a fact that the Society has had a steady trickle of priests

    which have been leaving her and embracing the Sedevacantist position over the years.

    Now, if you want to be real, let's please be real, gentleman to gentleman:

    1. Sedevacantism when it is properly defended is a theological position, necessarily held, the attempted refutation of which can only lead to personal heresy.

    2. There are many who call themselves sedevacantists who attempt to argue from the particulars of historical circuмstances surrounding each pope.

    I.E. on this date he said this in an encyclical, etc. This is completely unnecessary to maintain the Sedevacantist position.

    The Sedevacantist position, properly explained, is based on Dogmatic Fact and tight logic:

    Sequence 1-

    Syllogism 1:

    1. The Church is indefectible. (Dogma)
    2. But Vatican II has defected through proclaiming heresy. (Fact)
    3. Therefore the Authority proclaiming it is illegitimate. (Necessary Conclusion)

    Syllogism 2:

    1. The Authority Promulgating Vatican II is Not Catholic
    2. But Paul VI promulgated Vatican II.
    3. Therefore Paul VI is not Catholic.

    Syllogism 3:

    1. Paul Vi is not Catholic.
    2. Only a Catholic can be Pope
    3. Therefore Paul VI is not Pope.

    ERGO:

    1. Therefore, Since Vatican II is Not Catholic,
    2. and the Church is indefectible,
    3. Paul Vi cannot be Pope.


    Sequence 2, examining the Syllogisms of Sequence 1

    Syllogism 1:

    1. That the Church is indefectible means that she will always retain her outward Visible structure, even if offices

    fall vacant for some time. In addition, she will always be able to at least passively exercise the Universal

    Ordinary Magisterium in the preservation of that Truth (See Tanquerey's Dogmatic Theology on the Ordinary Universal Magisterium).

    The theologians readily admit the Church can exist without her head for in fact many years. She retains her monarchical

    structure, and, although widowed and Acephalous, the pulse of life lasts within her and Christ guides her from Heaven.

    This is how she at least passively retains her Ordinary Universal Magisterium.

    2. The Fact of Vatican II having defected from the faith is something I don't believe you will have any trouble admitting

    Mr. Salza. We all know that Vatican II clearly proclaimed heresies and embraced that which was previously condemned.

    But because Vatican II was Ostensibly an act of at LEAST the Universal Ordinary Magisterium, which Paul VI called the

    Supreme Ordinary Magisterium, and which he at others times called "Extraordinary," if you accept that he was a legitimate Pope, COMPELS your assent of Divine Faith.

    You Must admit that the CONTENT of Vatican II is infallible. For it has been Promulgated by a Pope,

    Accepted by all the Bishops, preached and acted upon, has been placed in Catechisms and has been made the Ordinary Universal teaching of all the Church.

    As Tanquerey ("Dogmatic Theology" 1894) says:

    Quote
    "The ordinary and universal magisterium is that which is carried on daily through the continuous preaching of the Church among all peoples. It includes:

    1. The preaching and proclamations of the Corporate Body of Bishops,
    2. universal custom or practice associated with dogma,

    3. the consensus or agreement of the Fathers and of the Theologians,
    4. the common or general understanding of the faithful. 2

    1. The Morally Unanimous Preaching (Teaching) of the Bishops

    290 Bishops teach the flock entrusted and subject to them by means of catechisms, by synodal directives, mandates,

    and in public sermons. If it is evident from these docuмents that some doctrine is being set forth universally as an object of faith,

    then nothing else is required for this doctrine to be accepted de fide.
    Bishops spread throughout the world, but with the Roman

    Pontiff forming one Corporate Body, are infallible when declaring a teaching on faith or morals.

    2. Practice of the Church Associated with Dogma  

    291 Among the customs and practices which have been closely joined to dogma we mention especially

    the public rites used in the solemn celebration of the sacrifice, or in the administration of the sacraments;

    also the formulas of prayers and various feasts or offices instituted by the Church; or sacred practices which have been associated with doctrine.  

    For a practice of the Church to become a criterion of faith there are two requirements:

    a. that the practice be necessarily connected with the dogmatic truth; for in imposing a practice or custom,

    the Church by that very fact orders that dogmas connected with this practice must be adhered to;  

    b. that a custom of this kind be universal or approved at least tacitly by infallible authority; for

    only the universal Church enjoys infallibility. Therefore, a custom or practice of one particular

    Church produces only a probable argument for revealed truth. The Roman Liturgy, approved in a special

     manner by the Supreme Pontiffs, cannot contain errors in dogma.
    Historical mistakes can creep in, and, as a

    matter of fact, they have slipped into the legends in the Breviary, as the best critics admit. But this fact is

    easily understood because the special lessons of the Second Nocturns were written at a time when apocryphal works

    were being spread abroad. Nevertheless, these lessons should not be despised because many points contained in them

    are true and are suitable for fostering piety and goodness.

    Now, Mr. Salza it is manifest that in order for you to be consistent with your position of

    accepting these men as Popes, you must accept their authority. More specifically, you must accept their

    encyclicals, their public preaching, and their acts of promulgation. You must accept their catechisms,

    their liturgical rites, and their observances, for Christ cannot lie when he said,

    "He who hears you hears me."

    You are therefore compelled to accept them on pain of heresy, for if you, admitting them to be Popes,

    fail to accept their promulgated teachings, you admit that the Papal Office and the Ordinary Universal

    Magisterium can be in error, and therefore promote that which is harmful to the faithful.

    But this is blasphemous. For that would be to attribute error and heresy and sacrilege to authority of Christ himself.

    As Pope Pius XII says in Humani Generis:

    Quote
    "Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand

    consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority.

    For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say:

    "He who heareth you, heareth me";[
    3] and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters

    already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official docuмents

    purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the

     mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians."


    The Ordinary and Non-Infallible Papal magisterium is itself an act of the authority of Christ.

    Therefore Mr. Salza, you must embrace the Novus Ordo. You have no choice, because it is wrought by Christ.

    It is a doing of the Church and you are presumably a loyal son of the Church and cannot reject that which is

    ordinarily and universally proclaimed, the content of which is contained in her Catechism, and proclaimed at her Council, Vatican II.

    3. But we know the above CANNOT be true Mr. Salza, don't we? We KNOW that Christ cannot contradict himself.

    We KNOW that His Church cannot defect by teaching falsehood.

    It is therefore NECESSARY and of FAITH to admit that this apparent teaching of Vatican II is simply inauthentic.

    It does not proceed from the Church, it does not have Christ for its author, and it is demonstrably false, erroneous, heretical.

    It is for this reason that whatever Authority promulgated Vatican II cannot have been legitimate Catholic Authority,

    because Legitimate Catholic Authority CANNOT promulgate error.

    Therefore, Paul VI and his successors, insofar as they imitate him and promulgate the same, cannot be Popes.

    The alternative is to attribute heresy and error to Christ which is blasphemy.

    Now, to examine the remainder:

    1. Paul VI was not Catholic. This is a necessary conclusion arrived at from Syllogism 1, that the

    Legitimate authority in the Church cannot promulgate error. But Paul VI promulgated error and advocated heresy, therefore he was not Catholic and Publically heretical.

    2. The theologians clearly teach Public Heretics cannot be head of the Church:

    Quote
    Marato — Institutions Juris Canonici, 1921 “Heretics and schismatics are barred from the

    Supreme Pontificate by the Divine Law itself, because, although by divine law they are not considered

    incapable of participating in a certain type of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, nevertheless, they must certainly

    be regarded as excluded from occupying the throne of the Apostolic See, which is the infallible teacher of the

    truth of the faith and the center of ecclesiastical unity.”

    St. Robert Bellarmine said: “A Pope who is a manifest heretic automatically ceases to be Pope and head, just as

    he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church.

    This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction.”

    St. Alphonsus, Bishop and Doctor of the Church, said: “If ever a Pope, as a private person, should fall into heresy,

    he should at once fall from the Pontificate. If, however, God were to permit a pope to become a notorious and contumacious heretic,

    he would by such fact cease to be pope, and the apostolic chair would be vacant.”

    St. Antoninus said: “In the case in which the Pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that very fact

    alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church. A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off.”


    Now, I can feel you telling yourself "FORMAL HERETICS! ONLY FORMAL HERETICS CAN FALL FROM THE PAPACY!"

    Not so Joe:

    Van Noort, taking his cue from Pope Pius XII explicitly teaches to the contrary:

    Quote
    "Dogmatic Theology Volume II: Christ's Church, Van Noort, p. 241-242

     b. Public heretics (and a fortiori, apostates) are not members of the Church.  They are not members because they separate themselves from

    the unity of Catholic faith and from the external profession of that faith. Obviously, therefore, they lack one of three factors—baptism,

    profession of the same faith, union with the hierarchy—pointed out by Pius XII as requisite for membership in the Church.
    The same

    pontiff has explicitly pointed out that, unlike other sins, heresy, schism, and apostasy automatically sever a man from the Church.

    "For not every sin, however grave and enormous it be, is such as to sever a man automatically from the Body of the Church, as does

    schism or heresy or apostasy" (MCC 30; italics ours).

        By the term public heretics at this point we mean all who externally deny a truth (for example Mary's Divine Maternity), or

    several truths of divine and Catholic faith, regardless of whether the one denying does so ignorantly and innocently (a merely material heretic), or willfully and guiltily (a formal heretic). It is certain that public, formal heretics are severed from the Church membership. It is the more common opinion that public, material heretics are likewise excluded from membership. Theological reasoning for this opinion is quite strong: if public material heretics remained members of the Church, the visibility and unity of Christ's Church would perish. If these purely material heretics were considered members of the Catholic Church in the strict sense of the term, how would one ever locate the "Catholic Church"? How would the Church be one body? How would it profess one faith? Where would be its visibility? Where its unity? For these and other reasons we find it difficult to see any intrinsic probability to the opinion which would allow for public heretics, in good faith, remaining members of the Church.


    3. Conclusion:

    The indefectibility of the Church demands that Paul VI not be Catholic. Therefore he cannot be Pope, as Public Heretics,

    whether material or formal, cannot be members of the Church, or the visibility of the Church is destroyed.

    If you claim otherwise, you must admit, by virtue of the PLAINLY EXERCISED Universal and Ordinary Magisterium, that

    CHRIST is the Author of our Chaos. That he has actively willed this for His Church and providentially provided for it

    through the magisterial offices he has established.

    This is BLASPHEMY.

    It is therefore a NECESSARY THEOLOGICAL CONCLUSION:

    Sede Vacante.

    Unless you have discovered a severability clause between Magisterial Teaching and Magisterial Office...

    Offline RobS

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #118 on: November 26, 2015, 05:51:55 PM »
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    John Salza:

    I have reviewed a number of your claims, in addition to responses to them. I have determined that your position is false and contradictory.  It’s been docuмented that you repeatedly switch your position on the primary issues.  For example, sometimes you say that people cannot consider a person who says he's Catholic to be a heretic without an official Church process or judgment, but other times you say they can.  Are public figures who support abortion (such as Joe Biden) to be considered Catholics or heretics according to you?  If you say heretics, that would contradict basically everything you are currently arguing on this issue.  If you say Catholics, that would really speak for itself and show you profess communion with the most notorious of heretics – and that, according to you, a person could believe in literally anything and must be considered Catholic and in the communion of the Church, as long as he claims to be Catholic and hasn’t gone through an official condemnatory process.  

    Also, do you agree with your endorser and colleague, Chris Ferrara, who has proclaimed “Cardinal” Walter Kasper a heretic?  Kasper hasn’t been declared a heretic or gone through an official process.  According to you, Kasper would have to be considered Catholic and not a heretic, right?  But even your endorser contradicts such a ridiculous conclusion, and proclaims Kasper (without any declaration) to be a heretic based on his clear contradiction of magisterial teachings.  

    Also, according to you, are Catholics supposed to recognize the execrable Blase Cupich as the leader of the Catholic Church in Chicago, with whom they should be united in faith and government?  Should Catholics recognize and be under the German “bishops”, who endorse divorce and “remarriage” and even sodomy?  These considerations, besides many others, show that your position is a theological travesty.


    There is a difference between a private judgment and the public judgment of the Church.  A person may privately judge that a particular prelate is a heretic, but if this private judgment is not reflected by the public judgment of the Church, it has no bearing whatsoever on their ecclesiastical status.  

    So, I’m sure John will agree that if he has referred to a certain prelate as a heretic, it was a private judgment, and not intended to represent the public judgment of the Church.  As St. Thomas teaches, and as John knows, a public judgment can only come from public authority.  

    We see this in the case of Nestorius who began to publicly preach heresy in 428.  His fellow patriarch, St. Cyril of Aledandria, who is now a doctor of the Church, refused to issue a public judgment, but instead appealed to the Pope to do so.  St. Cyril was well aware that Nestorius was teaching heresy and even sent him private letters in an attempt to bring him back to the correct doctrine, but he would not go further than that. These events are recorded in Lux Veritatis, by Blessed Pope Pius XI.  Here is what Pius XI wrote:

    Quote
    Pope Pius XI: “These evil dogmas [of Nestorius], which were not taught now covertly and obscurely by a private individual, but were openly and plainly proclaimed by the Bishop of the Constantinopolitan See himself, caused a very great disturbance of the minds of men, more especially in the Eastern Church. And among the opponents of the Nestorian heresy, some of whom were found in the capital city of the Eastern Empire, the foremost place was undoubtedly taken by that most holy man, the champion of Catholic integrity, Cyril, Patriarch of Alexandria. For as he was most zealous in his care of his own sons and likewise in that of erring brethren, he had no sooner heard of the perverse opinion of the Bishop of Constantinople than he strenuously defended the orthodox faith in the presence of his own flock, and also addressed letters to Nestorius and endeavoured in the manner of a brother to lead him back to the rule of Catholic truth.

    But when the hardened pertinacity of Nestorius had frustrated this charitable attempt, Cyril, who understood and strenuously maintained the authority of the Roman Church, would not himself take further steps, or pass sentence in such a very grave matter, until he had first appealed to the Apostolic See and had ascertained its decision. Accordingly, he addressed most dutiful letters to ‘the most blessed Father [Pope] Celestine, beloved of God,’ wherein among other things he writes as follows: ‘The ancient custom of the Churches admonishes us that matters of this kind should be communicated to Your Holiness. . . ‘ (Mansi, l.c. IV. 1011.) ‘But we do not openly and publicly forsake his Communion (i.e. Nestorius’) before indicating these things to your piety. Vouchsafe, therefore, to prescribe what you feel in this matter so that it may be clearly known to us whether we must communicate with him or whether we should freely declare to him that no one can communicate with one who cherishes and preaches suchlike erroneous doctrine. Furthermore, the mind of Your Integrity and your judgment on this matter should be clearly set forth in letters to the Bishops of Macedonia, who are most pious and devoted to God, and likewise to the Prelates of all the East.’ (Mansi, l.c. IV. 1015.)”


    Here we see the response to a Patriarch, Saint, and future doctor of the Church when faced with a prelate who publicly deviated from the rule of Faith.  He did not declare, based on his own authority (which was significant), that Nestorius had lost his office ipso facto by Divine law, without the judgment of the Church.  Instead, he warned him of his error and attempted to bring him back to the Faith. When that was fruitless, he continued to remain in communion with him and appealed to the pope to render the necessary judgment.  Nestorius was deposed for heresy three years later, at which time he became a public heretic according to the Church’s judgment.  

    Offline RobS

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    New book arguing against Sedevacantism
    « Reply #119 on: November 26, 2015, 05:54:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: RobS
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: RobS
    Quote from: Gregory I
    However, PUBLIC heretics fall from their office and lose jurisdiction ipso facto, as Bellarmine says above.


    Gregory I,

    Was Bellarmine referring to a public heretic (a “manifest heretic”) according to the authoritative judgment of the Church, or according to the private judgment of individual Catholics, which is contrary to the judgment of the Church?  If you believe Bellarmine meant that a prelate loses his office if a Catholic in the street personally believes he is a manifest heretic, while the Church herself continues to recognize him as a member of the Church in good standing, please provide a citation to support your assertion.


    Funny, Mr. Siscoe.  I think you've somehow incorporated at least three of the angles I've just mentioned in one paragraph.



    There are indeed many angles used to defend Sedevacantism.  It was necessary to address all of them, even if that seems to bother you personally.  

    The Sedevacantists are similar to Protestants in the sense that when you answer one argument, they shift gears to another; then, when you answer that one they move on to yet another argument, eventually returning to the first.  That is why it was necessary to address all of them all in one place.  

    But it is understandable why a Sedevacantists would not like having all of their argument addressed and answered in one place.  How will they shift from one argument to the next when they are all refuted?  So your annoyance over this is not a surprise.


    Does it address the Cassiciacuм Thesis?


    Yes.