Author Topic: New book arguing against Sedevacantism (Read 74656 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #720 on:** December 27, 2015, 04:42:15 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: MyrnaM
Quote from: Stubborn

Besides, per your own stupid, circular reasoning, there have been no popes for the last +50 years - yet PRESUMABLY, you have kept the faith, ipso fact proves that YOU don't even need a pope to keep the faith - so why do you even need a pope at all? If it's not a syndrome, what is it?

By your own words the sedevacantist person holding that position has kept the Faith. We are Roman Catholics and as Roman Catholics we are united to the Will of God, it is His design we have a Catholic Pope. Yes, we have kept the faith as you say, because we are united to the Will of God. Unlike your version were the pope can be pope of truth and error and still be considered pope. That my friend is not Catholic but it is your belief. I wish I can say you kept the faith, but sorry!

And I said your questions are "silly" ...
Silly questions because they are immaterial, not pertinent, irrevelant, because they are designed to entrap and ensnare, grabbing at straws trying desparently to prove your erroneous position to have weight, but it doesn’t have any weight which is why you are searching the bottom of the barrel.

Again you demonstrate you cannot read what is written, in case you can re-read what I said, you will find the word "presumably" in capital letters. It is impossible for you to have kept the faith without a pope because the Church teaches this, so if you reject it, you reject the Church - that's just the way that works.

Now, if you sedes were honest sedes, you would already come out with the honest answer, like this:
Quote
QUESTION Besides, per your own stupid, circular reasoning, there have been no popes for the last +50 years - yet PRESUMABLY, you have kept the faith, ipso fact proves that YOU don't even need a pope to keep the faith - so why do you even need a pope at all? If it's not a syndrome, what is it?

ANSWER I don't know why I need a pope at all. I must need one for some reason but for the life of me, I have absolutely no idea why I need a pope at all. I must really have ECS because far as I know, I really don't need a pope at all.

THAT would be a clear answer to the clear question, IF YOU WERE HONEST.

Because it is so obvious, can we at least agree on that?

Stubborn: Look it up ... pre·sum·a·bly
prəˈz(y)o͞oməblē/
adverb
used to convey that what is asserted is very likely though not known for certain.

synonyms: I presume, I expect, I assume, I take it, I suppose, I imagine, I dare say, I guess, in all probability, probably, in all likelihood, as likely as not, doubtless, undoubtedly, no doubt

You even dare to ask us a question and tell us now how we should answer LOL!

Well, you show that you can post from a dictionary well enough, you also show that you, an avowed sedevacantist, do not even know why you need a pope.

That's like a pitcher not knowing why he needs a baseball.

How is it that sede's are able to remain sedes and how the heck are they able to recruit other sede's into their fold?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #721 on:** December 27, 2015, 08:09:34 AM »

I already told you why we need a pope, because it is the Will of God, His design and to be a Catholic means united to God's Holy Will. You are the one who can't read, unless of course you missed my post back; if so, I apologize.

In fact, if you listen to yourself, you are the one who thinks we don't need a pope, otherwise, you wouldn't be so quick to call a non-Catholic man pope, forming an attitude of who cares who the pope is.

Stubborn:

Quote

How is it that sede's are able to remain sedes and how the heck are they able to recruit other sede's into their fold?

Answer to both ... "able to remain" and "able to recruit" ...
because the truth will set you free. Try it!

Stubborn · « **Reply #722 on:** December 27, 2015, 09:58:03 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

I already told you why we need a pope, because it is the Will of God, His design and to be a Catholic means united to God's Holy Will. You are the one who can't read, unless of course you missed my post back; if so, I apologize.

In fact, if you listen to yourself, you are the one who thinks we don't need a pope, otherwise, you wouldn't be so quick to call a non-Catholic man pope, forming an attitude of who cares who the pope is.

Stubborn:
Quote
How is it that sede's are able to remain sedes and how the heck are they able to recruit other sede's into their fold?

Answer to both ... "able to remain" and "able to recruit" ...
because the truth will set you free. Try it!

Try it? When you don't even know why YOU need a pope at all?

Note that I asked why YOU need a pope, not why WE need a pope.

I already posted I do not need a pope to save my soul, here, I will post it again just for you:

No, no, "we" do not need a pope. I do not need a pope therefore "we" do not need one. I already know what I must do to make it to heaven and an evil pope will not make me evil any more than a saintly pope will make me a saint.

Apparently you cannot understand this so I ask yet again - why do YOU need a pope at all?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #723 on:** December 27, 2015, 11:06:41 AM »

Stubborn ... catch this!

I need a Pope, because it is God's design, and I am united to the Will of God, with the help of His grace.

Got it!

Stubborn · « **Reply #724 on:** December 27, 2015, 11:28:29 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Stubborn ... catch this!

I need a Pope, because it is God's design, and I am united to the Will of God, with the help of His grace.

Got it!

So you need a pope because it is God's design? LOL Is that all you have? That's not even an answer.

FYI, sede's say there is no pope for the last 58 years, yet you say God designed something in a way that makes you need a pope, ergo, sedevacantism contradicts "God's design".

Just as I thought - you, a practicing sedevacantist have no idea why YOU even need a pope at all. You had best get back to googling for an actual answer. But there is still hope that perhaps one of the other sedevacantists will reply with an honest - and actual answer.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #725 on:** December 27, 2015, 11:35:56 AM »

Stubborn, you are a sedevacantist stretched so far that you are no longer in league with the Sedevacantist position.

You really believe that it matters not to you personally to even hope for a pope. You believe in only your own will because it confuses you so much to admit that we do not have a Catholic pope at this time, you can not accept this fact. Therefore, you invent a scenario that it matters not to you since you can save your soul without a pope ever. Now to ease your erroneous conscience you want me or another sedevacantist to join you in your need to say, "no, no, who needs a pope anyway mind-set" That is Not Catholic.

Sorry, I have to put my personal "YOU" (as you put it aside) It is not my nature to put my will above the Will of God. Yes, there was a time in my life, when my will was more important to me than the Will of God, actually, it was when I was led into Vatican II for 20 years, from 1962 approx. till 1982, give or take a few years, when the changes were taking place and grace was leaving. If God took me at that time I would be in Hell today, however, God showed me His mercy and I pray He will show you the same mercy.

At least, I can accept the fact that today, we do not have a Catholic pope, that is something you can't face.

Disputaciones · « **Reply #726 on:** December 27, 2015, 11:50:14 AM »

Hey Stubborn I'm still waiting for you to address this:

Quote from: Disputaciones

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Disputaciones
Quote from: Stubborn
...trying to speak Catholic truths to sedevacantists is like speaking to them in a foreign language, Catholic truths are the language which is mostly foreign to them so they simply will not understand.

Go ahead then, tell me what are these Catholic truths we don't understand.

Go on. I'm all ears.

You can feel free to go back and read the posts in this thread, but it all boils down to:
The conclusions of SVs are based off a premise of infallibility which is not a teaching of the Church. As such, basing conclusions off a premise which is not a teaching of the Church, leads to a conclusion which is not a teaching of the Church.

And what premise of infallibility are you talking about?

Quote from: Stubborn
Sedevacantism is the opinion deemed factual truth by those who hold the opinion, but it is certain that there is no Church teaching, no papal or magisterial docuмent ever in the history of the Church that teaches we are permitted to declare popes are not popes no matter how strong of an opinion we hold - SVism IS NOT a teaching of the Church.

Catholic teaching says that a manifestly heretical Pope deposes himself ipso facto, without the need for any declaration.

Stubborn · « **Reply #727 on:** December 27, 2015, 01:43:31 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Stubborn, you are a sedevacantist stretched so far that you are no longer in league with the Sedevacantist position.

You really believe that it matters not to you personally to even hope for a pope. You believe in only your own will because it confuses you so much to admit that we do not have a Catholic pope at this time, you can not accept this fact. Therefore, you invent a scenario that it matters not to you since you can save your soul without a pope ever. Now to ease your erroneous conscience you want me or another sedevacantist to join you in your need to say, "no, no, who needs a pope anyway mind-set" That is Not Catholic.

Sorry, I have to put my personal "YOU" (as you put it aside) It is not my nature to put my will above the Will of God. Yes, there was a time in my life, when my will was more important to me than the Will of God, actually, it was when I was led into Vatican II for 20 years, from 1962 approx. till 1982, give or take a few years, when the changes were taking place and grace was leaving. If God took me at that time I would be in Hell today, however, God showed me His mercy and I pray He will show you the same mercy.

At least, I can accept the fact that today, we do not have a Catholic pope, that is something you can't face.

Why are you worrying about what I think? Keep this on the subject that YOU, a sedevacantist whose promoted sedevacantism for years does not even know why YOU need a pope. That is incredible.

You cannot face the fact that you have no idea why YOU even need a pope at all, so let's keep it on that subject, shall we?

If you didn't have a "pope problem", you would probably better see how incredible it is that an avid sedevacantist like yourself does not even know why she needs a pope.

Stubborn · « **Reply #728 on:** December 27, 2015, 01:52:48 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

Hey Stubborn I'm still waiting for you to address this:

Quote from: Disputaciones
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Disputaciones
Quote from: Stubborn
...trying to speak Catholic truths to sedevacantists is like speaking to them in a foreign language, Catholic truths are the language which is mostly foreign to them so they simply will not understand.

Go ahead then, tell me what are these Catholic truths we don't understand.

Go on. I'm all ears.

You can feel free to go back and read the posts in this thread, but it all boils down to:
The conclusions of SVs are based off a premise of infallibility which is not a teaching of the Church. As such, basing conclusions off a premise which is not a teaching of the Church, leads to a conclusion which is not a teaching of the Church.

And what premise of infallibility are you talking about?

Quote from: Stubborn
Sedevacantism is the opinion deemed factual truth by those who hold the opinion, but it is certain that there is no Church teaching, no papal or magisterial docuмent ever in the history of the Church that teaches we are permitted to declare popes are not popes no matter how strong of an opinion we hold - SVism IS NOT a teaching of the Church.

Catholic teaching says that a manifestly heretical Pope deposes himself ipso facto, without the need for any declaration.

I already asked for you to re-read the thread for a more complete reply - but in brief, the false premise is that of papal infallibility, the sede's here confuse impeccability with infallibility.

As for your second point, please read the second paragraph which is labeled #1 of Apostolic Constitution, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio.

1) What does Pope Paul IV teach that we are *not* permitted to do to the Roman Pontiff?

2) What does Pope Paul IV instruct us to actually do about heretic popes, i.e. popes who deviate from the faith?

McCork · « **Reply #729 on:** December 27, 2015, 01:56:48 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: MyrnaM
Stubborn, you are a sedevacantist stretched so far that you are no longer in league with the Sedevacantist position.

You really believe that it matters not to you personally to even hope for a pope. You believe in only your own will because it confuses you so much to admit that we do not have a Catholic pope at this time, you can not accept this fact. Therefore, you invent a scenario that it matters not to you since you can save your soul without a pope ever. Now to ease your erroneous conscience you want me or another sedevacantist to join you in your need to say, "no, no, who needs a pope anyway mind-set" That is Not Catholic.

Sorry, I have to put my personal "YOU" (as you put it aside) It is not my nature to put my will above the Will of God. Yes, there was a time in my life, when my will was more important to me than the Will of God, actually, it was when I was led into Vatican II for 20 years, from 1962 approx. till 1982, give or take a few years, when the changes were taking place and grace was leaving. If God took me at that time I would be in Hell today, however, God showed me His mercy and I pray He will show you the same mercy.

At least, I can accept the fact that today, we do not have a Catholic pope, that is something you can't face.

Why are you worrying about what I think? Keep this on the subject that YOU, a sedevacantist whose promoted sedevacantism for years does not even know why YOU need a pope. That is incredible.

You cannot face the fact that you have no idea why YOU even need a pope at all, so let's keep it on that subject, shall we?

If you didn't have a "pope problem", you would probably better see how incredible it is that an avid sedevacantist like yourself does not even know why she needs a pope.

She answered your question, and it is a valid answer for a Catholic to give, though I will give another valid answer more in depth. Sorry to see you have a problem with why you yourself don't know why you need a pope so you ignore him completely. Better to know you don't have one than to think you have one and then utterly ignore him!

Disputaciones · « **Reply #730 on:** December 27, 2015, 02:47:38 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

I already asked for you to re-read the thread for a more complete reply

I'm not going to read 700+ posts when you can just tell me yourself.

Quote from: Stubborn

- but in brief, the false premise is that of papal infallibility, the sede's here confuse impeccability with infallibility.

I have never seen such a confusion. Can you point out one specific example of this?

Quote from: Stubborn

As for your second point, please read the second paragraph which is labeled #1 of Apostolic Constitution, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio.

1) What does Pope Paul IV teach that we are *not* permitted to do to the Roman Pontiff?

Why don't you just quote what you're referring to? There is no "second paragraph labeled #1".

Quote from: Stubborn

2) What does Pope Paul IV instruct us to actually do about heretic popes, i.e. popes who deviate from the faith?

Avoid them, AFTER declaring them to be excommunicated ipso facto without any declaration and their election being void and worthless.

McCork · « **Reply #731 on:** December 27, 2015, 03:18:38 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: MyrnaM
I already told you why we need a pope, because it is the Will of God, His design and to be a Catholic means united to God's Holy Will. You are the one who can't read, unless of course you missed my post back; if so, I apologize.

In fact, if you listen to yourself, you are the one who thinks we don't need a pope, otherwise, you wouldn't be so quick to call a non-Catholic man pope, forming an attitude of who cares who the pope is.

Stubborn:
Quote
How is it that sede's are able to remain sedes and how the heck are they able to recruit other sede's into their fold?

Answer to both ... "able to remain" and "able to recruit" ...
because the truth will set you free. Try it!

Try it? When you don't even know why YOU need a pope at all?

Note that I asked why YOU need a pope, not why WE need a pope.

I already posted I do not need a pope to save my soul, here, I will post it again just for you:

No, no, "we" do not need a pope. I do not need a pope therefore "we" do not need one. I already know what I must do to make it to heaven and an evil pope will not make me evil any more than a saintly pope will make me a saint.

Apparently you cannot understand this so I ask yet again - why do YOU need a pope at all?

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

So much for accepting that dogma, huh Stubborn??

Stubborn · « **Reply #732 on:** December 27, 2015, 03:27:47 PM »

Quote from: McCork

She answered your question, and it is a valid answer for a Catholic to give, though I will give another valid answer more in depth. Sorry to see you have a problem with why you yourself don't know why you need a pope so you ignore him completely. Better to know you don't have one than to think you have one and then utterly ignore him!

No, it is a reply a sedevacantist gives, it is not an answer in any way, shape or form a Catholic would give.

McCork · « **Reply #733 on:** December 27, 2015, 03:29:07 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: McCork

She answered your question, and it is a valid answer for a Catholic to give, though I will give another valid answer more in depth. Sorry to see you have a problem with why you yourself don't know why you need a pope so you ignore him completely. Better to know you don't have one than to think you have one and then utterly ignore him!

No, it is a reply a sedevacantist gives, it is not an answer in any way, shape or form a Catholic would give.

It is a valid answer for someone who has the faith, and evaluated as invalid by someone who doesn't.

Stubborn · « **Reply #734 on:** December 27, 2015, 03:30:30 PM »

Quote from: Disputaciones

Quote from: Stubborn
I already asked for you to re-read the thread for a more complete reply

I'm not going to read 700+ posts when you can just tell me yourself.

Quote from: Stubborn
- but in brief, the false premise is that of papal infallibility, the sede's here confuse impeccability with infallibility.

I have never seen such a confusion. Can you point out one specific example of this?

Quote from: Stubborn
As for your second point, please read the second paragraph which is labeled #1 of Apostolic Constitution, cuм ex Apostolatus Officio.

1) What does Pope Paul IV teach that we are *not* permitted to do to the Roman Pontiff?

Why don't you just quote what you're referring to? There is no "second paragraph labeled #1".

Quote from: Stubborn
2) What does Pope Paul IV instruct us to actually do about heretic popes, i.e. popes who deviate from the faith?

Avoid them, AFTER declaring them to be excommunicated ipso facto without any declaration and their election being void and worthless.

Show us where it says that - also note the second paragraph labeled #1