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Author Topic: New book arguing against Sedevacantism  (Read 80980 times)

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New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #300 on: December 02, 2015, 02:11:48 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn
I'm pretty sure that your idea of UOM and infallibility is the same as their idea of UOM and infallibility as well. I could be wrong there, mainly because I'm pretty sure you are not really sure what your idea of UOM and infallibility even is - then again, I'm pretty sure they're not sure about it either.

Like I said, it's the principle of the thing.


 :confused1:   Now there's a confusing post!


New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #301 on: December 02, 2015, 02:18:16 PM »
Cantarella,

Perhaps you didn't see this list of quotes I posted recently from the Church all which unanimously state the ordinary magisterium is infallible? There are no exceptions, so don't waste your time continuing to fight this - these quotes speak for themselves.


Quote from: PaulFC


First Vatican Council (1870):
"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Canon Law 1323 (1917):
1. All of those things are to be believed with a divine and Catholic faith that are contained in the written word of God or in tradition and that the Church proposes as worthy of belief, as divinely revealed, whether by solemn judgment or by her ordinary and universal magisterium.

Commentary On Canon Law, Augustine (imprimatur, 1918) Canon 1323:
§ 1. All those truths which are contained in the written word of God, or in tradition, and proposed to our belief as divinely revealed either by a solemn proclamation or by the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church must be believed by Divine and Catholic faith.
§ 2. To pronounce a solemn judgment of this kind appertains either to a general Council or to the Roman Pontiff speaking ex cathedra.
§ 3. Nothing is to be taken as dogmatically declared or defined, unless it is manifestly known to be such.
The material object of faith (objectum materialc fidci), or that which is to be believed, is contained either in Holy Writ, as accepted by the Church, or in tradition, as preserved by the Church. However, as Holy Writ itself, without the acceptance of the Church, would be merely a material or indifferent book — though perhaps sacred on account of its venerable age and contents—so tradition would lack sacred character and obligation but for the infallible judgment of the Church. This infallible judgment is embodied in the teaching office of the Church, and constitutes a special prerogative granted to the Church by Christ, in virtue of which she cannot deceive nor be deceived in matters of faith and morals.
Our text distinguishes a solemn ex cathedra judgment and the ordinary magisterium of the Church. But there is no intrinsic difference between the two, as they derive from the same source, vis., the divine promise and providence, and have the same object and purpose. The object is faith and morals; the purpose, to protect the faithful from error.
**
The ordinary and universal teaching body of the Church consists of the pastors together with their head, the Roman Pontiff, no matter where the former are found, whether scattered over the globe, or sitting united in St. Peter's Dome. This is called the active subject of the infallible magisterium (subicctum activae infallibilitatis). To this teaching body corresponds the believing body of the faithful, which latter, however, being the subiectutn passivae infallibilitatis, cannot be separated from the teaching body or be opposed to it. For the teaching office or authority is the cause of the infallibility of the Church, and both bodies are one in the same faith.
There is, however, a distinction, though not quite adequate, between the teaching office of the Sovereign Pontiff alone, and the body of teachers or the teaching Church united to its head, i. e., the Pontiff. Without the latter, or, worse still, in opposition to the latter, there can be no teaching body, whilst the authority of infallible teacher is embodied in the Roman Pontiff alone. Both the Pontiff sole and the body of teachers united with him, enjoy the power of teaching infallibly.
The universal and ordinary magisterium " consists of the entire episcopate, according to the constitution and order defined by Christ, i. e., all the bishops of the universal Church,— dependently on the Roman Pontiff. Priests and deacons do not, ittre d'wino, belong to the hierarchy of jurisdiction, and therefore, are not, properly speaking, judges in matters of faith and morals, nor can they be, hire ordinario, bearers of infallible teaching. However, they exercise a certain teaching authority by divine right, inasmuch, namely, as they are helpers and co-workers of the bishops, from whom they receive delegated mission, and preach and testify to the faith preached and expounded by the episcopate. They, too, in a wider sense partake of the assistance of the Holy Ghost.
This teaching authority, then, proposes what must be believed by divine and Catholic faith. It is indeed true that what God has revealed may and must be believed with divine faith* and that what the Church proposes as part of divine Revelation, may and must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or, shortly, with Catholic faith. But the material object of divine faith comprises more than the object of Catholic faith, and besides there is something in Catholic faith which is not so clearly expressed or conspicuous in divine faith. For the former is offered by the living word of the Church with a precision and determination that leaves no doubt as to the supernatural origin and medium through which it is conveyed. This Catholic faith then commands our assent and obedience to the full extent of a childlike belief, but from the motive of divine veracity and truth.
The term proposed means not merely an official or authentic formulation of a given object or article, but an authoritative promulgation of a law or rule contained in revelation, commanding our full interior and exterior assent.
§ 2 defines, according to Vatican Council, the solemn judgment of the Church in contradistinction to her ordinary and universal magisterium, not as if the office of the Supreme Pontiff were extraordinary, in the strict sense, but because this means of proposing an infallible truth is uncommon. Such a solemn pronunciamento or proclamation may be made either by a general council or by the Pope. That a council cannot be ecuмenical without the head, is evident, as explained in our Vol. II, where the other requisites are also discussed.
The Pope alone, after having been duly elected and having accepted the election, is the lawful head of the Church, and, in virtue of his primacy of jurisdiction, is the supreme pastor and teacher of the whole Church, as the Vatican Council has defined. As such he may define, or issue decrees on, points of faith and morals, binding the whole Church. His decisions do not receive their obligatory force from the consent of the Church, as the Gallicans asserted, but embrace the whole extent of the object of the infallibility inherent in the teaching Church. The term ex cathedra means: (a) that the Pope proclaims a dogma as the supreme teacher and pastor of the Church; (b) that it be a matter of faith and morals, not of history or politics disconnected with the former; (c) that he pronounce an authoritative and final sentence with the manifest intention of obliging (d) the entire Church, i. e.t all individuals as well as the whole body of the faithful.
However, as § 3 intimates, there may be doubt as to what is declared or defined either by the universal teaching Church or by means of papal ex cathedra definitions. Therefore the theologians have laid down certain rules, which we will briefly restate.
a) What has been solemnly defined, either by a general council or by the Supreme Pontiff, is certainly de fide; but not all the historical or theological assertions which accompany a papal decision (for instance, the Bull "Ineffabilis ") are de fide.
b) What is clearly and undoubtedly contained in Holy Scripture and Tradition as a matter of faith or morals, must be believed, although individual errors are not entirely excluded;
c) What the universal and approved practice and discipline proposes as connected with faith and morals must also be believed ("Lex orandi, lex credendi").
d) What the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide.
There may be some doubt as to the form of infallible decisions. A test for genuine ex cathedra definitions has been found in the following formulas: (1) if those who assert the contrary are declared heretics; (2) if the terms "si quis" is used with "anathema" following; (3) if it is declared that the doctrine in question must be firmly believed by all the faithful as a dogma.
If after the application of these rules a solid doubt remains, the utterance is not infallibly binding, as is evident from our text.

Pope Pius IX in his Letter to Archbishop Scherr of Munich in 1863:
"We desire to reassure ourselves that they did not mean to limit the obligation, which strictly binds Catholic teachers and writers, to those things only which are proposed by the infallible judgment of the Church as dogmas of faith to be believed by everybody. In a like manner, We are convinced that it was not their intention to state that the perfect adherence to revealed truths (which they regard as absolutely necessary for true progress in science and for refuting errors) can be maintained, if the submission of faith is given only to those dogmas expressly defined by the Church. The reason for this is the following: even supposing that we are treating of that subjection which is to be made by an explicit act of divine faith, this must not be limited to those things which have been defined in the express decrees of the ecuмenical councils or of the Roman Pontiffs of this See; but it must also be extended to those things which, through the ordinary teaching of the whole Church throughout the world, are proposed as divinely revealed and, as a result, by universal and constant consent of Catholic theologians are held to be matters of faith. "

Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus, On the Study of Holy Scripture, Nov 18, 1893:
Wherefore the first and dearest object of the Catholic commentator should be to interpret those passages which have received an authentic interpretation either from the sacred writers themselves, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost (as in many places of the New Testament), or from the Church, under the assistance of the same Holy Spirit, whether by her solemn judgment or her ordinary and universal magisterium

Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical On the Church in Scotland, 1898
"But as the Church was to last to the end of time, something more was required besides the bestowal of the Sacred Scriptures. It was obviously necessary that the Divine Founder should take every precaution, lest the treasure of heavenly-given truths, possessed by the Church, should ever be destroyed, which would assuredly have happened, had He left those doctrines to each one's private judgment. It stands to reason, therefore, that a living, perpetual "magisterium" was necessary in the Church from the beginning, which, by the command of Christ himself, should besides teaching other wholesome doctrines, give an authoritative explanation of Holy Writ, and which being directed and safeguarded by Christ himself, could by no means commit itself to erroneous teaching"

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, 1950 (Denz 2313):
It is not to be thought that what is set down in Encyclical Letters does not demand assent in itself, because in this the popes do not exercise the supreme power of their magisterium. For these matters are taught by the ordinary magisterium, regarding which the following is pertinent: "He who heareth you, heareth me." [Luke 10:16]; and usually what is set forth and inculcated in the Encyclical Letters, already pertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their acts, after due consideration, express an opinion on a hitherto controversial matter, it is clear to all that this matter, according to the mind and will of the same Pontiffs, cannot any longer be considered a question of free discussion among the theologians.

Pope Pius XII, Defining the Dogma of the Assumption, Munificentissimus Deus, Nov 1, 1950:
"Thus, from the universal agreement of the Church's ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm proof, demonstrating that the Blessed Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven- which surely no faculty of the human mind could know by its own natural powers, as far as the heavenly glorification of the virginal body of the loving Mother of God is concerned-is a truth that has been revealed by God and consequently something that must be firmly and faithfully believed by all children of the Church. For, as the Vatican Council asserts, "all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."
“Certainly this teaching authority of the Church, not by any merely human effort but under the protection of the Spirit of Truth,[7] and therefore absolutely without error, carries out the commission entrusted to it, that of preserving the revealed truths pure and entire throughout every age, in such a way that it presents them undefiled, adding nothing to them and taking nothing away from them.”

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913), Science and the Church, The Holders of the Teaching Office:
(1) The official activity of teaching may be exercised either in the ordinary, or daily, magisterium, or by occasional solemn decisions. The former goes on uninterruptedly; the latter are called forth in times of great danger, especially of growing heresies. The promise of Divine assistance provides for the integrity of doctrine "all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt., xxviii, 20). From the nature of the case it follows that individual bishops may fall into error, because ample provision is made when the entire teaching body of the Church and the supreme pastor in particular are protected by Providence. The "Ecclesia docens", as a whole, can never fall into error in matters of faith or morals, whether her teaching be the ordinary or the solemn; nor can the pope proclaim false doctrines in his capacity of supreme pastor of the universal Church. Without this prerogative, which is known by the name of Infallibility, the Divine promise of assistance would be a fallacy.

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913), Dogma:
But according to a long-standing usage a dogma is now understood to be a truth appertaining to faith or morals, revealed by God, transmitted from the Apostles in the Scriptures or by tradition, and proposed by the Church for the acceptance of the faithful. It might be described briefly as a revealed truth defined by the Church -- but private revelations do not constitute dogmas, and some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office. A dogma therefore implies a twofold relation: to Divine revelation and to the authoritative teaching of the Church.
"...some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office”

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913), Infallibility:
Mutual Relations of the Organs of Infallibility
A few brief remarks under this head will serve to make the Catholic conception of ecclesiastical infallibility still clearer. Three organs have been mentioned:
1. the bishops dispersed throughout the world in union with the Holy See;
2. ecuмenical councils under the headship of the pope; and
3. the pope himself separately.
Through the first of these is exercised what theologians describe as the ordinarium magisterium, i. e. the common or everyday teaching authority of the Church; through the second and third the magisterium solemne, or undeniably definitive authority. Practically speaking, at the present day, and for many centuries in the past, only the decisions of ecuмenical councils and the ex cathedra teaching of the pope have been treated as strictly definitive in the canonical sense, and the function of the magisterium ordinarium has been concerned with the effective promulgation and maintenance of what has been formally defined by the magisterium solemne or may be legitimately deduced from its definitions.
Even the ordinarium magisterium is not independent of the pope. In other words, it is only bishops who are in corporate union with the pope, the Divinely constituted head and centre of Christ's mystical body, the one true Church, who have any claim to share in the charisma by which the infallibility of their morally unanimous teaching is divinely guaranteed according to the terms of Christ's promises.

A Catholic Dictionary (imprimatur, 1931-1957), Infallibility:
"This infallibility resides (A) in the pope personally and alone; (B) in an ecuмenical Council subject to papal confirmation (these infallibilities are distinct but correlative); (C) in the bishops of the Church, dispersed throughout the world, teaching definitively in union with the pope. This is not a different infallibility from (B) but is the ordinary exercise of a prerogative (hence called the "ordinary magisterium") which is manifested in a striking manner in an ecuмenical Council. This ordinary magisterium is exercised by pastoral letters, preaching, catechisms, the censorship of publications dealing with faith and morals, the reprobation of doctrines and books: it is thus in continuous function and embraces the whole deposit of faith."

A Catholic Dictionary (imprimatur, 1931-1957), Magisterium:
“The Church's divinely appointed authority to teach the truths of religion…This teaching is infallible. The solemn magisterium is that which is exercised only rarely by formal and authentic definitions of councils or Popes... The ordinary magisterium is continually exercised by the Church especially in her universal practices connected with faith and morals, in the unanimous consent of the Fathers and theologians, in the decisions of the Roman Congregations concerning faith and morals, in the common sense of the Faithful, and various historical docuмents, in which the faith is declared. All these are founts of a teaching which as a whole is infallible...”

The Catechism Explained (imprimatur, 1899) Page 237: The Infallibility of the Church
As Christ was not to remain always on earth, He appointed another infallible teacher, His Church, and provided it with the necessary gifts, especially with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. Christ conferred on His apostles and their successors the teaching office and promised them His divine assistance. Thus He said at His ascension into heaven: "Going, teach ye all nations . . . and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt, xxviii. 19, 20) ; and at the Last Supper: "I will ask the Father and He shall give you another Paraclete that He may abide with you forever, the Spirit of truth"; (John xiv. 16, 17). To St. Peter He said: "The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church" (Matt. xvi. 18). Since Christ is the Son of God, His words must be true. If the Church, in the carrying out of her teaching office, could lead man into error, Christ would not have kept His word. Hence St. Paul calls the Church "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim. iii. 15), and the measures decided upon by the apostles in the Council of Jerusalem were introduced with the words: "For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us" (Acts xv. 28).
Page 239:
Nor was this solemn declaration (of the Immaculate Conception in 1854) necessary; it was quite sufficient that all the bishops should teach in the same sense in regard of any given subject to make that teaching infallible; were it otherwise the Church would be capable of teaching heresy, or of falling away from the truth. Hence the Vatican Council declared that not only must that be accepted which has been solemnly defined by the Church, but also whatever is proposed by the lawful and general teaching authority (Vatican Council, 3, 3).





New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #302 on: December 02, 2015, 02:22:17 PM »
Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: ubipetrus
Quote from: McCork
The end of discussion occurred when both Siscoe and Salza quit this thread several days ago.

Did anyone but me notice WHEN they quit?  It was when Catholictrue asked him/them:
Quote from: Catholictrue
By the way, does your book have the approval of your local 'ordinary', from whom you claim one may not separate without a Church judgment?  If not, why not?  And if you say people cannot separate from the ‘hierarchy’ under Francis until an official judgment is made, why are you promoting and receiving endorsements from numerous priests who have separated from their ‘bishops’ and ‘ordinaries’ without a judgment?  Can you not see the inconsistency (and outright hypocrisy) of such a position?  In one breath you say that it’s absolutely forbidden to separate from one’s 'bishop' without a judgment, and then in the next you say: read it in a book endorsed by the head of a group (Bernard Fellay) who has been separated from his ‘bishops’ for decades, and by priests who are totally independent from their ‘bishops’, so much so that they teach one must not attend diocesan ‘services’!

And the nails in the coffin were when Clemens Maria pointed out that:
Quote from: Clemens Maria
Bravo!  Don't expect a response on that one.

And when Gregory I also brought up the same point:
Quote from: Gregory I
Does your book have the Nihil Obstat of your local bishop Mr. Salza? Mr. Siscoe? An imprimatur?

Not only had they no reply to that; that shut them both up completely!


That is the Achilles' heel of proving Sedevacantism wrong from a SSPX R&R standpoint. It can be done and easily so from many other different angles, though.


It literally cannot be shown to be wrong from any standpoint, because the theological conclusions it arrives at are certain and binding:

1. The Church cannot defect.
2. Vatican II defected.
3. The teaching of Vatican II doesn't come from the Church.

1. Vatican II is a defection from prior magisterial teaching.
2. But the ordinary universal magisterial authority cannot promulgate false magisterial teaching.
3. Therefore Vatican II was not promulgated by magisterial authority.

1. Pope Paul VI promulgated Vatican II in the name of the Church.
2. But the Pope cannot promulgate heresy in the name of the whole church.
3. Therefore Paul VI has no Papal authority.

Game over.

New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #303 on: December 02, 2015, 02:36:08 PM »
Quote from: PaulFC
Cantarella,

Perhaps you didn't see this list of quotes I posted recently from the Church all which unanimously state the ordinary magisterium is infallible? There are no exceptions, so don't waste your time continuing to fight this - these quotes speak for themselves.


Quote from: PaulFC


First Vatican Council (1870):
"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Canon Law 1323 (1917):
1. All of those things are to be believed with a divine and Catholic faith that are contained in the written word of God or in tradition and that the Church proposes as worthy of belief, as divinely revealed, whether by solemn judgment or by her ordinary and universal magisterium.

Commentary On Canon Law, Augustine (imprimatur, 1918) Canon 1323:
§ 1. All those truths which are contained in the written word of God, or in tradition, and proposed to our belief as divinely revealed either by a solemn proclamation or by the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Church must be believed by Divine and Catholic faith.
§ 2. To pronounce a solemn judgment of this kind appertains either to a general Council or to the Roman Pontiff speaking ex cathedra.
§ 3. Nothing is to be taken as dogmatically declared or defined, unless it is manifestly known to be such.
The material object of faith (objectum materialc fidci), or that which is to be believed, is contained either in Holy Writ, as accepted by the Church, or in tradition, as preserved by the Church. However, as Holy Writ itself, without the acceptance of the Church, would be merely a material or indifferent book — though perhaps sacred on account of its venerable age and contents—so tradition would lack sacred character and obligation but for the infallible judgment of the Church. This infallible judgment is embodied in the teaching office of the Church, and constitutes a special prerogative granted to the Church by Christ, in virtue of which she cannot deceive nor be deceived in matters of faith and morals.
Our text distinguishes a solemn ex cathedra judgment and the ordinary magisterium of the Church. But there is no intrinsic difference between the two, as they derive from the same source, vis., the divine promise and providence, and have the same object and purpose. The object is faith and morals; the purpose, to protect the faithful from error.
**
The ordinary and universal teaching body of the Church consists of the pastors together with their head, the Roman Pontiff, no matter where the former are found, whether scattered over the globe, or sitting united in St. Peter's Dome. This is called the active subject of the infallible magisterium (subicctum activae infallibilitatis). To this teaching body corresponds the believing body of the faithful, which latter, however, being the subiectutn passivae infallibilitatis, cannot be separated from the teaching body or be opposed to it. For the teaching office or authority is the cause of the infallibility of the Church, and both bodies are one in the same faith.
There is, however, a distinction, though not quite adequate, between the teaching office of the Sovereign Pontiff alone, and the body of teachers or the teaching Church united to its head, i. e., the Pontiff. Without the latter, or, worse still, in opposition to the latter, there can be no teaching body, whilst the authority of infallible teacher is embodied in the Roman Pontiff alone. Both the Pontiff sole and the body of teachers united with him, enjoy the power of teaching infallibly.
The universal and ordinary magisterium " consists of the entire episcopate, according to the constitution and order defined by Christ, i. e., all the bishops of the universal Church,— dependently on the Roman Pontiff. Priests and deacons do not, ittre d'wino, belong to the hierarchy of jurisdiction, and therefore, are not, properly speaking, judges in matters of faith and morals, nor can they be, hire ordinario, bearers of infallible teaching. However, they exercise a certain teaching authority by divine right, inasmuch, namely, as they are helpers and co-workers of the bishops, from whom they receive delegated mission, and preach and testify to the faith preached and expounded by the episcopate. They, too, in a wider sense partake of the assistance of the Holy Ghost.
This teaching authority, then, proposes what must be believed by divine and Catholic faith. It is indeed true that what God has revealed may and must be believed with divine faith* and that what the Church proposes as part of divine Revelation, may and must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or, shortly, with Catholic faith. But the material object of divine faith comprises more than the object of Catholic faith, and besides there is something in Catholic faith which is not so clearly expressed or conspicuous in divine faith. For the former is offered by the living word of the Church with a precision and determination that leaves no doubt as to the supernatural origin and medium through which it is conveyed. This Catholic faith then commands our assent and obedience to the full extent of a childlike belief, but from the motive of divine veracity and truth.
The term proposed means not merely an official or authentic formulation of a given object or article, but an authoritative promulgation of a law or rule contained in revelation, commanding our full interior and exterior assent.
§ 2 defines, according to Vatican Council, the solemn judgment of the Church in contradistinction to her ordinary and universal magisterium, not as if the office of the Supreme Pontiff were extraordinary, in the strict sense, but because this means of proposing an infallible truth is uncommon. Such a solemn pronunciamento or proclamation may be made either by a general council or by the Pope. That a council cannot be ecuмenical without the head, is evident, as explained in our Vol. II, where the other requisites are also discussed.
The Pope alone, after having been duly elected and having accepted the election, is the lawful head of the Church, and, in virtue of his primacy of jurisdiction, is the supreme pastor and teacher of the whole Church, as the Vatican Council has defined. As such he may define, or issue decrees on, points of faith and morals, binding the whole Church. His decisions do not receive their obligatory force from the consent of the Church, as the Gallicans asserted, but embrace the whole extent of the object of the infallibility inherent in the teaching Church. The term ex cathedra means: (a) that the Pope proclaims a dogma as the supreme teacher and pastor of the Church; (b) that it be a matter of faith and morals, not of history or politics disconnected with the former; (c) that he pronounce an authoritative and final sentence with the manifest intention of obliging (d) the entire Church, i. e.t all individuals as well as the whole body of the faithful.
However, as § 3 intimates, there may be doubt as to what is declared or defined either by the universal teaching Church or by means of papal ex cathedra definitions. Therefore the theologians have laid down certain rules, which we will briefly restate.
a) What has been solemnly defined, either by a general council or by the Supreme Pontiff, is certainly de fide; but not all the historical or theological assertions which accompany a papal decision (for instance, the Bull "Ineffabilis ") are de fide.
b) What is clearly and undoubtedly contained in Holy Scripture and Tradition as a matter of faith or morals, must be believed, although individual errors are not entirely excluded;
c) What the universal and approved practice and discipline proposes as connected with faith and morals must also be believed ("Lex orandi, lex credendi").
d) What the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide.
There may be some doubt as to the form of infallible decisions. A test for genuine ex cathedra definitions has been found in the following formulas: (1) if those who assert the contrary are declared heretics; (2) if the terms "si quis" is used with "anathema" following; (3) if it is declared that the doctrine in question must be firmly believed by all the faithful as a dogma.
If after the application of these rules a solid doubt remains, the utterance is not infallibly binding, as is evident from our text.

Pope Pius IX in his Letter to Archbishop Scherr of Munich in 1863:
"We desire to reassure ourselves that they did not mean to limit the obligation, which strictly binds Catholic teachers and writers, to those things only which are proposed by the infallible judgment of the Church as dogmas of faith to be believed by everybody. In a like manner, We are convinced that it was not their intention to state that the perfect adherence to revealed truths (which they regard as absolutely necessary for true progress in science and for refuting errors) can be maintained, if the submission of faith is given only to those dogmas expressly defined by the Church. The reason for this is the following: even supposing that we are treating of that subjection which is to be made by an explicit act of divine faith, this must not be limited to those things which have been defined in the express decrees of the ecuмenical councils or of the Roman Pontiffs of this See; but it must also be extended to those things which, through the ordinary teaching of the whole Church throughout the world, are proposed as divinely revealed and, as a result, by universal and constant consent of Catholic theologians are held to be matters of faith. "

Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus, On the Study of Holy Scripture, Nov 18, 1893:
Wherefore the first and dearest object of the Catholic commentator should be to interpret those passages which have received an authentic interpretation either from the sacred writers themselves, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost (as in many places of the New Testament), or from the Church, under the assistance of the same Holy Spirit, whether by her solemn judgment or her ordinary and universal magisterium

Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical On the Church in Scotland, 1898
"But as the Church was to last to the end of time, something more was required besides the bestowal of the Sacred Scriptures. It was obviously necessary that the Divine Founder should take every precaution, lest the treasure of heavenly-given truths, possessed by the Church, should ever be destroyed, which would assuredly have happened, had He left those doctrines to each one's private judgment. It stands to reason, therefore, that a living, perpetual "magisterium" was necessary in the Church from the beginning, which, by the command of Christ himself, should besides teaching other wholesome doctrines, give an authoritative explanation of Holy Writ, and which being directed and safeguarded by Christ himself, could by no means commit itself to erroneous teaching"

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, 1950 (Denz 2313):
It is not to be thought that what is set down in Encyclical Letters does not demand assent in itself, because in this the popes do not exercise the supreme power of their magisterium. For these matters are taught by the ordinary magisterium, regarding which the following is pertinent: "He who heareth you, heareth me." [Luke 10:16]; and usually what is set forth and inculcated in the Encyclical Letters, already pertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their acts, after due consideration, express an opinion on a hitherto controversial matter, it is clear to all that this matter, according to the mind and will of the same Pontiffs, cannot any longer be considered a question of free discussion among the theologians.

Pope Pius XII, Defining the Dogma of the Assumption, Munificentissimus Deus, Nov 1, 1950:
"Thus, from the universal agreement of the Church's ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm proof, demonstrating that the Blessed Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven- which surely no faculty of the human mind could know by its own natural powers, as far as the heavenly glorification of the virginal body of the loving Mother of God is concerned-is a truth that has been revealed by God and consequently something that must be firmly and faithfully believed by all children of the Church. For, as the Vatican Council asserts, "all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."
“Certainly this teaching authority of the Church, not by any merely human effort but under the protection of the Spirit of Truth,[7] and therefore absolutely without error, carries out the commission entrusted to it, that of preserving the revealed truths pure and entire throughout every age, in such a way that it presents them undefiled, adding nothing to them and taking nothing away from them.”

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913), Science and the Church, The Holders of the Teaching Office:
(1) The official activity of teaching may be exercised either in the ordinary, or daily, magisterium, or by occasional solemn decisions. The former goes on uninterruptedly; the latter are called forth in times of great danger, especially of growing heresies. The promise of Divine assistance provides for the integrity of doctrine "all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt., xxviii, 20). From the nature of the case it follows that individual bishops may fall into error, because ample provision is made when the entire teaching body of the Church and the supreme pastor in particular are protected by Providence. The "Ecclesia docens", as a whole, can never fall into error in matters of faith or morals, whether her teaching be the ordinary or the solemn; nor can the pope proclaim false doctrines in his capacity of supreme pastor of the universal Church. Without this prerogative, which is known by the name of Infallibility, the Divine promise of assistance would be a fallacy.

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913), Dogma:
But according to a long-standing usage a dogma is now understood to be a truth appertaining to faith or morals, revealed by God, transmitted from the Apostles in the Scriptures or by tradition, and proposed by the Church for the acceptance of the faithful. It might be described briefly as a revealed truth defined by the Church -- but private revelations do not constitute dogmas, and some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office. A dogma therefore implies a twofold relation: to Divine revelation and to the authoritative teaching of the Church.
"...some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office”

Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913), Infallibility:
Mutual Relations of the Organs of Infallibility
A few brief remarks under this head will serve to make the Catholic conception of ecclesiastical infallibility still clearer. Three organs have been mentioned:
1. the bishops dispersed throughout the world in union with the Holy See;
2. ecuмenical councils under the headship of the pope; and
3. the pope himself separately.
Through the first of these is exercised what theologians describe as the ordinarium magisterium, i. e. the common or everyday teaching authority of the Church; through the second and third the magisterium solemne, or undeniably definitive authority. Practically speaking, at the present day, and for many centuries in the past, only the decisions of ecuмenical councils and the ex cathedra teaching of the pope have been treated as strictly definitive in the canonical sense, and the function of the magisterium ordinarium has been concerned with the effective promulgation and maintenance of what has been formally defined by the magisterium solemne or may be legitimately deduced from its definitions.
Even the ordinarium magisterium is not independent of the pope. In other words, it is only bishops who are in corporate union with the pope, the Divinely constituted head and centre of Christ's mystical body, the one true Church, who have any claim to share in the charisma by which the infallibility of their morally unanimous teaching is divinely guaranteed according to the terms of Christ's promises.

A Catholic Dictionary (imprimatur, 1931-1957), Infallibility:
"This infallibility resides (A) in the pope personally and alone; (B) in an ecuмenical Council subject to papal confirmation (these infallibilities are distinct but correlative); (C) in the bishops of the Church, dispersed throughout the world, teaching definitively in union with the pope. This is not a different infallibility from (B) but is the ordinary exercise of a prerogative (hence called the "ordinary magisterium") which is manifested in a striking manner in an ecuмenical Council. This ordinary magisterium is exercised by pastoral letters, preaching, catechisms, the censorship of publications dealing with faith and morals, the reprobation of doctrines and books: it is thus in continuous function and embraces the whole deposit of faith."

A Catholic Dictionary (imprimatur, 1931-1957), Magisterium:
“The Church's divinely appointed authority to teach the truths of religion…This teaching is infallible. The solemn magisterium is that which is exercised only rarely by formal and authentic definitions of councils or Popes... The ordinary magisterium is continually exercised by the Church especially in her universal practices connected with faith and morals, in the unanimous consent of the Fathers and theologians, in the decisions of the Roman Congregations concerning faith and morals, in the common sense of the Faithful, and various historical docuмents, in which the faith is declared. All these are founts of a teaching which as a whole is infallible...”

The Catechism Explained (imprimatur, 1899) Page 237: The Infallibility of the Church
As Christ was not to remain always on earth, He appointed another infallible teacher, His Church, and provided it with the necessary gifts, especially with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. Christ conferred on His apostles and their successors the teaching office and promised them His divine assistance. Thus He said at His ascension into heaven: "Going, teach ye all nations . . . and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" (Matt, xxviii. 19, 20) ; and at the Last Supper: "I will ask the Father and He shall give you another Paraclete that He may abide with you forever, the Spirit of truth"; (John xiv. 16, 17). To St. Peter He said: "The gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church" (Matt. xvi. 18). Since Christ is the Son of God, His words must be true. If the Church, in the carrying out of her teaching office, could lead man into error, Christ would not have kept His word. Hence St. Paul calls the Church "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Tim. iii. 15), and the measures decided upon by the apostles in the Council of Jerusalem were introduced with the words: "For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us" (Acts xv. 28).
Page 239:
Nor was this solemn declaration (of the Immaculate Conception in 1854) necessary; it was quite sufficient that all the bishops should teach in the same sense in regard of any given subject to make that teaching infallible; were it otherwise the Church would be capable of teaching heresy, or of falling away from the truth. Hence the Vatican Council declared that not only must that be accepted which has been solemnly defined by the Church, but also whatever is proposed by the lawful and general teaching authority (Vatican Council, 3, 3).





PaulCF,

No need to re-post these lengthy quotes. For some reason, many sedevacantists are so fond of cutting & pasting these insufferable lengthy quotes all at once in forum discussions as to dissimulate their poor understanding of the topic and deceive the untrained naïve reader. It is juvenile.  

Quote from: First Vatican Council (1870)

"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."



What happens with the many teachings that are NOT proposed by the Church to be believed by Divine and Catholic Faith and which are NOT contained in the Word of God or in Tradition?

Perhaps this question will put things in the right perspective for you.

It is not about what organ is teaching what, but the teaching itself, which necessarily must be connected to Scripture and Tradition to be dogmatic and defined as such by the Church. Infallibility is the degree of certitude of a teaching. Of course, there are instance where the Ordinary Magisterium teaches what has been previously defined as infallible via Ecuмenical Council or the Pope speaking ex-cathedra. Whenever this happens, their infallibility has been previously established by an independent decision by the proper organ.

New book arguing against Sedevacantism
« Reply #304 on: December 02, 2015, 02:46:45 PM »
Quote from: Amakusa
Quote
The end of discussion occurred when both Siscoe and Salza quit this thread several days ago.


They left because they saw that you didn't understand anything about infallibility...


Is that what they told you, or wishful thinking on your part?