Author Topic: New book arguing against Sedevacantism (Read 74692 times)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #15 on:** November 24, 2015, 11:25:24 AM »

Quote from: songbird

If bishop Fellay puts his forward on this, I back away!

Lawyers find witnesses. Let me find everyone that agrees with me and bring up what increases their credibility, the more witnesses I bring that will state what I want them to the more innocent my guilty client will look. Witness take the stand. Profession. Priest. How many years did you study at the seminary? Do you believe Francis is Pope? Why? Next. Profession please. People as you have just witnessed I have brought the testimony of many educated people who come to the sound conclusion that Francis is Pope. To deny this would be absurd. Let the defense rest.

Gregory I · « **Reply #16 on:** November 24, 2015, 12:15:24 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

This is all I need to know about Salza; this discredits everything else he's ever going to say.

Quote from: Salza
By withdrawing submission from the Holy Father and the faithful in communion with him, Sedevacantists are schismatic and hence automatically excommunicated from the Church under both Divine and ecclesiastical law (canon 1325, par. 2).

R&R withdraws from submission to and communion with the Holy Father, not SVism. If SVs happen to be wrong, theirs would be only a material schism due to the judgment that x, y, and z are not actually legitimate Holy Fathers (a material error similar to the mistake of St. Vincent Ferrer). Canonists agree that one does not become schismatic if the refusal of submission comes from well-founded doubts regarding the person of the Pope. On the other hand, R&R professes the legitimacy of these V2 papal claimants and yet they refuse submission to and communion with them. They do this not simply as an act of disobedience but due to a profound rejection of their Magisterium and the Church's Universal Discipline. If R&R are right about these being legitimate popes, then they are formal schismatics. Heck, even if they're wrong, their position is formally schismatic. God will likely have mercy on them due to the confusion of the times, but their position entails formal schism, while the SV position at most entails material schism.

Another good point Laudislaus is that Sedevacantists are implicitly submitted to a traditional Catholic Pope, the exact same as when St Vincent Ferrer proclaimed Benedict XIII schismatic and the see of Peter Vacant. He didn't recognize the Roman and Pisan Popes. Yet in the end he submitted to Martin V and worked miracles in the meantime.

But RnR HAVE a pope and they ignore him and refuse to get with his program.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #17 on:** November 24, 2015, 12:34:57 PM »

Quote from: Gregory I

But RnR HAVE a pope and they ignore him and refuse to get with his program.

I can see scenarios where "Faith is greater than obedience" might apply, in the case of positive commands that might be harmful. But what R&R posits is that the Magisterium can go so badly off the rails that it would justify a categorical lack of submission to the Holy See, that the Universal Discipline of the Church can be harmful to souls and displeasing to God. There's just nothing Catholic about that. We're not talking about some minor misstatement in a docuмent here or there that can be respectfully disputed through the appropriate channels and with all due respect to the Magisterium as a whole, but about a substantially corrupt body of false doctrine. We don't have to nitpick about infallibility in the strict sense.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #18 on:** November 24, 2015, 02:13:42 PM »

Wow....

The endorsements are incredible

Quote:
“The most devastating prosecution of the Sedevacantist thesis in print."
-CHRISTOPHER FERRARA, J.D.
President, American Catholic Lawyers Association

Of course, Ferrara is another lawyer who pretends to be an expert in theology.

Quote:
“This book by John Salza and Robert Siscoe is the most detailed and scholarly rebuttal of Sedevacantism yet to appear."
-FR. BRIAN hαɾɾιsON, O.S.
Emeritus Professor of Theology Pontifical Catholic University of Puerto

Setting the bar quite high, eh?

Quote:
“The most comprehensive, exhaustively docuмented, well-reasoned critique of Sedevacantism to date."
-JOHN VENNARI
Editor, Catholic Family News

Wow...the bar is set even higher by Mr. Vennari - can it get any higher?

Quote:
“...Sedevacantism poses a real danger because it offers an apparent solution to a real problem. It does so at the expense of fidelity to the perennial Magisterium of the Church."
-BRIAN MCCALL, J.D.
Associate Dean of Academics,
University of Oklahoma College of Law

It does so at the expense of fidelity to the Magisterium? Really, Brian? And the R&R position doesn't? What a joke...

Quote:
“I read every page of this book with great interest. It is a thorough treatment of the questions raised by Sedevacantism, grounded in solid Catholic theology, on the Fathers, Doctors and Popes."
-FR. FRANÇOIS LAISNEY
Former U.S. District Superior,
Society of St. Pius X

Grounded in solid Catholic theology? If Father Laisney truly believes this, I am at a loss for words...

Quote:
“This is the most thoroughly researched and articulately presented book of its kind. Whether you are a Sedevacantist, or researching the movement, this book is irreplaceable. Brilliant!”
-TIM STAPLES
Director of Apologetics and Evangelization
Catholic Answers

Whether you are a sedevacantist, or researching the movement, the book is irreplaceable?

Thanks, Tim from Catholic Answers.

Quote:
“This book serves notice to the occupiers of the Catholic Church: Traditional Catholics are not going anywhere. We’ll stay and we’ll fight until all of “our buildings” are in the hands of Catholics once again.”
-MICHAEL MATT
Editor, The Remnant newspaper

Of course, Mike - it's all about the buildings! Let's not pay any attention to the manifest heresy coming from Rome.

Quote:
“...we have a modern dynamic-duo in John Salza and Robert Siscoe...not only to deal with Sedevacantism, but the whole ultra-right mentality that consistently overreacts to their counterparts on the right and left.
-ROBERT SUNGENIS, Ph.D.
Catholic Apologetics International

Sedevacantism = Ultra-right wing mentality?

Quote:
“True or False Pope? is simply luminous. ...Serving as a sort of North Star, the book indicates the true path of fidelity to the Church during these disorienting times."
-FR. STEVEN REUTER
Professor, Natural Law Ethics
St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, Winona

Simply luminous - I thought Vennari and Father(?) hαɾɾιson set the bar high... Luminous? Serving as a North Star??

Quote:
“Salza and Siscoe did not leave a single stone face down in their seek and destroy mission, lopping off head after head of that hydra which tries in every which way to prove that the Church has no head.

Let the reader, then, take up this book, expecting to find within its pages a refutation of every Sedevacantist argument that has ever been put forward..."
-FR. PAUL ROBINSON
Professor of Dogmatic Theology
Holy Cross Seminary, Australia

Lopping off head after head.... A refutation of EVERY sedevacantist argument ever put forward...

Where do these people come from? This is absolute dogmatic sedeplenism at it finest. The bar has been set about as high as it can go, in regards to this luminous masterpiece - unbelievable, but not shocking.

The above are the potential witnesses to be called before the people in the hope of exonerating the guilty. Here is our conclusion, no need for authentic evidence backed by sound sources. None of the witnesses would be saying such things if it were not true right. Right?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #19 on:** November 24, 2015, 02:15:01 PM »

Quote

Wow....

The endorsements are incredible

Quote:
“The most devastating prosecution of the Sedevacantist thesis in print."
-CHRISTOPHER FERRARA, J.D.
President, American Catholic Lawyers Association

Of course, Ferrara is another lawyer who pretends to be an expert in theology.

Quote:
“This book by John Salza and Robert Siscoe is the most detailed and scholarly rebuttal of Sedevacantism yet to appear."
-FR. BRIAN hαɾɾιsON, O.S.
Emeritus Professor of Theology Pontifical Catholic University of Puerto

Setting the bar quite high, eh?

Quote:
“The most comprehensive, exhaustively docuмented, well-reasoned critique of Sedevacantism to date."
-JOHN VENNARI
Editor, Catholic Family News

Wow...the bar is set even higher by Mr. Vennari - can it get any higher?

Quote:
“...Sedevacantism poses a real danger because it offers an apparent solution to a real problem. It does so at the expense of fidelity to the perennial Magisterium of the Church."
-BRIAN MCCALL, J.D.
Associate Dean of Academics,
University of Oklahoma College of Law

It does so at the expense of fidelity to the Magisterium? Really, Brian? And the R&R position doesn't? What a joke...

Quote:
“I read every page of this book with great interest. It is a thorough treatment of the questions raised by Sedevacantism, grounded in solid Catholic theology, on the Fathers, Doctors and Popes."
-FR. FRANÇOIS LAISNEY
Former U.S. District Superior,
Society of St. Pius X

Grounded in solid Catholic theology? If Father Laisney truly believes this, I am at a loss for words...

Quote:
“This is the most thoroughly researched and articulately presented book of its kind. Whether you are a Sedevacantist, or researching the movement, this book is irreplaceable. Brilliant!”
-TIM STAPLES
Director of Apologetics and Evangelization
Catholic Answers

Whether you are a sedevacantist, or researching the movement, the book is irreplaceable?

Thanks, Tim from Catholic Answers.

Quote:
“This book serves notice to the occupiers of the Catholic Church: Traditional Catholics are not going anywhere. We’ll stay and we’ll fight until all of “our buildings” are in the hands of Catholics once again.”
-MICHAEL MATT
Editor, The Remnant newspaper

Of course, Mike - it's all about the buildings! Let's not pay any attention to the manifest heresy coming from Rome.

Quote:
“...we have a modern dynamic-duo in John Salza and Robert Siscoe...not only to deal with Sedevacantism, but the whole ultra-right mentality that consistently overreacts to their counterparts on the right and left.
-ROBERT SUNGENIS, Ph.D.
Catholic Apologetics International

Sedevacantism = Ultra-right wing mentality?

Quote:
“True or False Pope? is simply luminous. ...Serving as a sort of North Star, the book indicates the true path of fidelity to the Church during these disorienting times."
-FR. STEVEN REUTER
Professor, Natural Law Ethics
St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, Winona

Simply luminous - I thought Vennari and Father(?) hαɾɾιson set the bar high... Luminous? Serving as a North Star??

Quote:
“Salza and Siscoe did not leave a single stone face down in their seek and destroy mission, lopping off head after head of that hydra which tries in every which way to prove that the Church has no head.

Let the reader, then, take up this book, expecting to find within its pages a refutation of every Sedevacantist argument that has ever been put forward..."
-FR. PAUL ROBINSON
Professor of Dogmatic Theology
Holy Cross Seminary, Australia

Lopping off head after head.... A refutation of EVERY sedevacantist argument ever put forward...

Where do these people come from? This is absolute dogmatic sedeplenism at it finest. The bar has been set about as high as it can go, in regards to this luminous masterpiece - unbelievable, but not shocking.

The above are the potential witnesses to be called before the people in the hope of exonerating the guilty. Here is our conclusion, no need for authentic evidence backed by sound sources. None of the witnesses would be saying such things if it were not true right. Right?

2Vermont · « **Reply #20 on:** November 24, 2015, 02:28:53 PM »

Meanwhile....back at the ranch.....

HiddenServant · « **Reply #21 on:** November 24, 2015, 02:58:22 PM »

Pray the Rosary in Latin this
will help calm anyone's nerves.
Spend time in adoration chapel
then the Eucharist will knock the
temptations out clearer. Many forget
do many even realize or know if you
were baptized in the old rite or not?
I know i was and was told of it as
a little boy. How many on here know
whether or not and if they need to
have the old rite applied to them !

HiddenServant · « **Reply #22 on:** November 24, 2015, 02:59:33 PM »

In the essence of thee O'Lord God, how I have sinned,
I know that I am always unworthy, yet thou put the grace
of thy son Jesus upon me. How many times thou telleth me
that i must turn the other cheek, not look at others as
though i am superior and most of all, to think i am better
in any way, shape, or form. Were i to be judged on how i
treat others how horrible would be my consequences for all
my actions. I can see that if i were to be judged before
thee after my death, i would be in a despicable condition.
O how sad may i be that i could be so cruel, and not see
the good path thou had set before me in my lifetime. I can
bet many a time i thought others may of been beneath me ,
others had no right to their voice and let alone not give
me what i demanded. Yet thy son Jesus forgives as many a
time as i ask.

HiddenServant · « **Reply #23 on:** November 24, 2015, 03:00:56 PM »

How can we ever show our gratitude with the
grace of thee O God, with the Holy Ghost in Sanctifying
Grace, Thy life energy with in our being. This is far more
than i should ever be given, and receive. May I be able to
show the love, charity, and compassion to those in need,to
those who can change from their sinful passions and be able
to live a life fully in thy honor. Let not their past be the
judgement, let it be as many times as thou wish and amplify.
Never let us go, linger around us O' Jesus forever and ever.
Instill all the Angelic harmony and peace as true Christians
ought. Give to the lost at least a final chance to make right.
This way none can say they did not have the opportunity to be
able to get to Heaven. Let paradise be our goal today !

Stubborn · « **Reply #24 on:** November 24, 2015, 03:08:05 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

This is all I need to know about Salza; this discredits everything else he's ever going to say.

Quote from: Salza
By withdrawing submission from the Holy Father and the faithful in communion with him, Sedevacantists are schismatic and hence automatically excommunicated from the Church under both Divine and ecclesiastical law (canon 1325, par. 2).

R&R withdraws from submission to and communion with the Holy Father, not SVism.

This is not the whole truth.

If / when the pope commands something Catholic, I would submit, I would think everyone would. To date, nothing the conciliar popes have said or done have been binding on anyone. At worst, we can be rightfully accused of being disobedient, but that is not to say we will not submit to him.

Quote from: Ladislaus

If SVs happen to be wrong, theirs would be only a material schism due to the judgment that x, y, and z are not actually legitimate Holy Fathers (a material error similar to the mistake of St. Vincent Ferrer).

The problem with this statement is, it is not a matter of "if SVs happen to be wrong" - there is no "happen to be wrong" when it comes to this because Sedevacantists must prove they are right and know they are right *before* they choose to decide to embrace SVism, but it is as impossible to prove they are right as it is impossible to prove that all NO consecrations are invalid.

You cannot embrace SVism and figure well, if I happen to be wrong, I'll only be in material schism. We all have the responsibility to find out positively first, not last - because if wrong or if mistaken, we are separating ourselves from the Church and that is schism - period.

Quote from: Ladislaus

Canonists agree that one does not become schismatic if the refusal of submission comes from well-founded doubts regarding the person of the Pope.

Well founded doubts means one can be 100% wrong, and if one seeks the truth of the matter, they should attain at least enough knowledge one way or the other to get off that dangerous middle ground they have firmly planted themselves on.

Quote from: Ladislaus

On the other hand, R&R professes the legitimacy of these V2 papal claimants and yet they refuse submission to and communion with them. They do this not simply as an act of disobedience but due to a profound rejection of their Magisterium and the Church's Universal Discipline. If R&R are right about these being legitimate popes, then they are formal schismatics. Heck, even if they're wrong, their position is formally schismatic. God will likely have mercy on them due to the confusion of the times, but their position entails formal schism, while the SV position at most entails material schism.

This thinking is altogether wrong. We refuse to obey popes and the magisterium because they want us to offend God. The pope is the shepherd, the magisterium are sheep, the sheep do not lead the shepherd. If the pope is wrong, the magisterium is wrong - that simple. You say we should follow them into the pit - but they are blind, we are not blind - so we do not follow them into the pit. That is being disobedient for the sake of not walking into the pit. But you make it seem like we should follow them into the pit just because they are legitimate. I'll say it again - this thinking is altogether wrong.

TKGS · « **Reply #25 on:** November 24, 2015, 03:44:51 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Four legs good. Two legs b-a-a-a-a-d!

Thank you, Stubborn, for your incisive and perceptive analysis.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #26 on:** November 24, 2015, 04:03:54 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

This is not the whole truth.

Sure it is. You go to Mass, Confession, the other Sacraments, etc. with a group that has no canonical standing in the Church and refuses submission to the Holy See. Just because you would choose to do some things that the NO hierarchy tells you to doesn't put you into canonical submission.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** November 24, 2015, 04:05:31 PM »

Quote from: Bellator Dei

Quote from: Stubborn
This thinking is altogether wrong. We refuse to obey popes and the magisterium because they want us to offend God.

The Vicar of Christ and the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church want you to offend God.....

No comment.

I'll comment. To state that submission to the Magisterium could cause someone to offend God is absolutely heretical.

Arvinger · « **Reply #28 on:** November 24, 2015, 04:26:15 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

We refuse to obey popes and the magisterium because they want us to offend God.

I have never read a statement which would expose the absurdity of R&R position more clearly and forcefully than this one.

Arvinger · « **Reply #29 on:** November 24, 2015, 04:33:01 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

If / when the pope commands something Catholic, I would submit, I would think everyone would.

Fr Chazal says that all actions and commands of Francis must be ignored, whether they are Catholic or not. Sede-doubtism and sedeprivationism really seem to be the best positions in this crisis.