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Author Topic: Navy SEAL Catholicism  (Read 6729 times)

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Offline gunfighter

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Navy SEAL Catholicism
« on: September 05, 2011, 06:16:21 PM »
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  • I have a friend that is a Navy SEAL.  He spent 16 years on the Team.  To become a SEAL, a man has to go through incredible difficult training.  It pushes men to the limits of their physical and mental capability.  Out of 216 men that started in his class, BUD/s 208, only 16 graduated.  It takes a high level of motivation and dedication to succeed.  Why do they do it?  To be a SEAL and to be the best.

    Once a SEAL, they live for honor.  They are known as the quiet professionals.  I am sure there are exceptions, but the ones I know are respectful and humble.

    If men can undergo so much for a natural goal, why do we Catholics fall so short?  If we applied 50% of the effort to our faith that a SEAL does to being a warrior, our Faith would flourish.  Instead, most of us spend more time distracted with things of the world.  When the spiritual life requires hardship, we turn to worldly pursuits as a distraction.

    Another area we could learn from Spec ops is loyalty.  A Team 1 SEAL does not go online and rip a Team 2 guy.  They are all SEALs and they do not destroy each other.  Not that there may not be an exception, but this is generally true.

    As Traditional Catholics, we face a more powerful enemy than any warrior does.  However, we expend our energy fighting each other.  We lose sight of our true end and the end of our Church.   We are our own worst enemies.

    I suspect God brought the current chaos to the world, as a punishment for man's rejection of God for the world.  The Gospel had been preached and man has rejected it.  I further suspect, that God also punishes us Traditional Catholics with discord, because we claim the title of Catholic, but we do not dedicate our lives and time to His Faith.  


    Offline ColdFusion

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    « Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 07:46:24 PM »
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  • The Navy Seals would find itself in a similar position as traditional Catholicism, if the Seals begin to exercise independent judgment regarding the actions of their superiors, and question the morality of the missions they are asked to undertake.  

    Those who practice traditional Catholicism, whether they are sedes or not, are the people who chose to move away from what they determined was corruption, foolishness, and/or active destruction of our faith.   If there are any Catholics to be compared to Navy Seals, it is those who persevere within (in spite of) the Novus Ordo prayerfully, and loyally, without complaint.    These faithful who ignore the scandals, refuse to believe anything negative about their clergy, and remain loyal no matter what are exactly what you are describing above.  

    Have you considered that perhaps it is not God’s will for independent Catholic organizations to grow into megachurches with unthinking, unquestioningly loyal followers?     Perhaps the transparency and scrutiny to which independent clergy are subjected keeps the faith, being practiced without jurisdiction or accountability, from turning into cults, and the clergy from destroying themselves.


    Offline gunfighter

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    « Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 11:01:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: ColdFusion
    The Navy Seals would find itself in a similar position as traditional Catholicism, if the Seals begin to exercise independent judgment regarding the actions of their superiors, and question the morality of the missions they are asked to undertake.  

    Those who practice traditional Catholicism, whether they are sedes or not, are the people who chose to move away from what they determined was corruption, foolishness, and/or active destruction of our faith.   If there are any Catholics to be compared to Navy Seals, it is those who persevere within (in spite of) the Novus Ordo prayerfully, and loyally, without complaint.    These faithful who ignore the scandals, refuse to believe anything negative about their clergy, and remain loyal no matter what are exactly what you are describing above.  

    Have you considered that perhaps it is not God’s will for independent Catholic organizations to grow into megachurches with unthinking, unquestioningly loyal followers?     Perhaps the transparency and scrutiny to which independent clergy are subjected keeps the faith, being practiced without jurisdiction or accountability, from turning into cults, and the clergy from destroying themselves.


    No, I think God probably wants us to practice charity to each other rather than constant attacks and bickering.  But then again, why should we follow the church's teaching, rather than the free-masonic principle of liberalism?

    I also think we missed the point. The SEALs were just a rough analogy.  You could also point to the sacrifices made by most people, so they can pack there house with material items.  Why do Traditional Catholics not do likewise when it comes to storing up spiritual treasures?


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 03:21:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: gunfighter
    No, I think God probably wants us to practice charity to each other rather than constant attacks and bickering.  But then again, why should we follow the church's teaching, rather than the free-masonic principle of liberalism?


    Proper corrections are not "attacks and bickering." Let's review the teaching of the Church through Her approved teachers, the experts in Moral Theology:

    Quote from: McHugh and Callan, Moral Theology, Fraternal correction
    1270. The kinds of faults that call for fraternal correction are as follows:

    (a) grave sins should be corrected, for otherwise one allows a soul to perish that might have been saved (Matt., xviii. 14, 15);

    (b) slight sins or transgressions of rules should also be corrected, when they are the occasion of grave scandal or disorder in a community, and superiors who are negligent about this commit mortal sin.

    (c) slight sins or transgressions should not be corrected in ordinary cases, for these faults are so numerous that, if one had to correct them, an intolerable burden would be laid on everyone. Persons who scold and lecture over every trifling misdeed are regarded as pests and do more harm than good.

    1286. In what cases should secret admonition he used?

    (a) For public sins (i.e., real sins known or soon to be known to the larger part of the community), no secret admonition is required, since the guilt is already publicly known; a public correction, on the contrary, is necessary to remedy the scandal:

    “Them that sin reprove before all, that the rest also may have fear" (I Tim., v. 20).

    (b) For occult sins that are against the common good or the good of a third person no secret admonition is required, but one should denounce them immediately; for the spiritual or corporal welfare of the multitude or of an innocent private individual is a greater good than the reputation of the guilty person. Exception should be made, however, for the case in which one is certain that by a secret admonition one can correct the sinner and prevent the harm that threatens others. Examples: If Titus knows that there is a plot to rob the house of Balbus, and that any effort to dissuade the criminals would only bring him into danger, he ought to warn Balbus or the authorities. If Claudius knows that in his school a certain student is teaching the other boys to steal and become drunk, he should make this known, and hence cannot be absolved if he refuses. But the seal of the confessional must be observed.

    (c) For occult sins that are not against the common good or that of a third person, one should have recourse to secret admonition before making the sins known. This will save the sinner from loss of reputation and from consequent hardness in sin; it will also save others from a share in his infamy, or from the scandal caused by publicity.


    1287. What is the obligation of reporting an occult sin that is doing harm in a community, when the person who reports will suffer for telling what he knows?

    (a) If harm to the community will result from silence, one is obliged even at the cost of great inconvenience to speak (see 1284). Example: Claudius knows that a fellow-student has a bad influence over his companions, and is leading more and more of them into stealing, with the result that a large number will be corrupted and the institution disgraced. But he cannot speak without serious harm to himself, because he also has been implicated, or because informers are regarded and treated as traitors.

    (b) If some private harm will result from silence, one is not bound at the cost of great inconvenience to speak. Example: If Claudius knows that only one or two are being led astray, he is not bound to implicate himself or to incur the ignominy of being regarded as a spy.


    Quote from: McHugh and Callan, Moral Theology
    2037. Right to True and False Reputation.

    There is, nevertheless, a difference between the right to a true and the right to a false reputation.

    (a) Thus, the right to a true reputation is an absolute and universal right, one which does not cease in any case, for truth and justice demand that one should not represent as evil a person who is really good. This right applies to an extraordinary, as well as to an ordinary reputation.

    (b) The right to a false reputation is a relative and limited right, one which ceases when the common good on which it rests no longer supports it (e.g., when it cannot be maintained without injustice). Moreover, there is no right to an extraordinary reputation, if it is based on false premises, for the common good does not require such a right, and hence it is not detraction to show that the renown of an individual for superior skill or success is built up on advertising  alone or merely on uninformed rumor.

    2068. Rights that Have Precedence over a False Reputation.

    (a) The public good is to be preferred to a false reputation, for the public welfare is the ground for the right to such reputation, the subject himself being unworthy of the good name he bears (see 2037). It is right, therefore, to denounce criminals or conspirators to the proper authority or to testify against them. Employers have the duty to discuss together the failings or imperfections of their employees that interfere with the business; subjects should manifest abuses about which they are asked in a canonical visitation; students In a college should give information about companions who are depraving the morals of the student body or exercising an evil influence on the other residents, etc.

    (b) The private good of innocent parties may he preferred to the fame of one who enjoys a false reputation. One may reveal secret defects for one's own defense; for example, a person whose life, honor or property is being unjustly attacked may reveal sins of the guilty in order to deter them or weaken their authority; a person who has been injured by his superior or another party may speak of this to a friend for the sake of obtaining consolation, or to a confessor, a lawyer or other adviser for the sake of obtaining counsel or assistance. One may also reveal secret defects for the protection of others; for example, one should put unsuspecting persons on their guard against seducers, impostors, quacks; one should reveal impediments that stand in the way of a marriage, or should warn a young woman that the man to whom she is engaged is a criminal or diseased; one should make known the true author of a crime for which an innocent person is about to suffer; one should tell the truth to inquirers about the incompetency of servants or other persons whom one has employed.

    (c) The higher good of the person whose faults are revealed may also be preferred to the lower good of his false reputation; for it is to his interest that his higher good be promoted, even at the expense of an inferior good. It is lawful to tell parents about the misdeeds or their children (e.g., that a daughter is involved in a scandalous liaison), in order that the latter may be corrected; to speak to the friends of wayward persons about the misconduct of the latter in order that prayers may be said for their conversion.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 03:33:43 PM »
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  • Quote
    (b) slight sins or transgressions of rules should also be corrected, when they are the occasion of grave scandal or disorder in a community, and superiors who are negligent about this commit mortal sin.


    I think the priestly authorization of what they fancy to be "white lies" (which are never justified and often far more serious than the priest rationalizes them to be) fall under this classification.  


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 05:35:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote
    slight sins or transgressions of rules should also be corrected, when they are the occasion of grave scandal or disorder in a community, and superiors who are negligent about this commit mortal sin.


    I think the priestly authorization of what they fancy to be "white lies" (which are never justified and often far more serious than the priest rationalizes them to be) fall under this classification.  


    Quote from: Spriago-Clarke, The Catechism Explained
    What are the Reasons that should make us refrain from Untruthfulness ?

    1. The liar is like the devil and displeasing to God. He who forfeits the confidence of his fellow-men causes a great deal of harm and is capable of committing all manner of evil deeds. The liar resembles the devil, for the devil is a liar and the father thereof (John viii. 44). Remember how the serpent in paradise lied to Eve. Liars are children of the devil, not by nature, but by imitation.

    The liar is displeasing to God. God is truth itself, and therefore He abhors the liar. Our Lord did not speak as sharply of any one as of the Pharisees. And why? Because they were hypocrites (Matt, xxiii. 27). From every class of sinners He gave an example of one who was saved; e.g., Zacheus among usurers, the good thief among highwaymen, Magdalen and the Samaritan at Jacob s well among profligate women, Saul among persecutors of the Church, but not one single individual among liars and hypocrites did He mention as having sought and found pardon. Many a time God punished liars severely ; witness Ananias and his wife Saphira, who for their falsehood fell dead at St. Peter s feet (Acts v.) and Giezi, the servant of Eliseus, who was struck with leprosy for his lies and avarice (4 Kings v.). Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord (Prov. xii. 22). The liar forfeits the trust of his fellow-men. The shepherd who cried wolf when no wolf was near, found he was not believed when his flock was really attacked; his comrades had been so often deceived that they did not heed his cries. A liar is not trusted when he speaks the truth; he is hated by God and man. Liars often do a great deal of harm. The spies who went to view the Promised Land deceived the Israelites by their false report, and alarmed them so that they blasphemed God, wanted to stone the two spies who spoke the truth, and clamored to return to Egypt. See what mischief those men wrought: God declared His intention to destroy the people (Numb. xiii.). Jacob deceived his father and obtained his blessing fraudulently; his brother Esau threatened to kill him and Jacob was obliged to take to flight. He that hath no guard on his speech shall meet with evils (Prov. xiii. 3). The liar falls into many other sins.  Show me a liar and I will show you a thief.  Where you find hypocrisy, you find cheating and all manner of evil practices. A liar cannot possibly be God-fearing. The Holy Spirit will flee from the deceitful (Wisd. i. 5). All the piety and devotion of one whose words serve to conceal, not to express his thoughts, is a mere sham; do not associate with such a one, lest he corrupt you with his ungodly ways.  Lying men are without honor (Ecclus. xx. 28). The just shall hate a lying word  (Prov. xiii. 5).
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline gunfighter

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    « Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 09:35:52 PM »
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  • SJBer,

    You have accused Bishop Dolan and Father Cekada of theft.  If this were true, they would have been arrested.  

    You seem to confuse your opinion for fact.  Then you use your opinion to justify calumny and detraction.

    Our Lord taught that you can judge a tree by its fruit.  Eamon and you have accomplished nothing constructive.  Your little admiration society may support your actions, but the vast majority of Traditional Catholics are not moved by your whining.


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 10:13:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: gunfighter
    SJBer,

    You have accused Bishop Dolan and Father Cekada of theft.  If this were true, they would have been arrested.  

    You seem to confuse your opinion for fact.  Then you use your opinion to justify calumny and detraction.

    Our Lord taught that you can judge a tree by its fruit.  Eamon and you have accomplished nothing constructive.  Your little admiration society may support your actions, but the vast majority of Traditional Catholics are not moved by your whining.


    Fr. Cekada's very own words on Fisheater's Forum in 2008 supports this view.

     
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline gunfighter

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    « Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 10:43:24 PM »
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  • So let me guess, the prosecutor is a SGG cultist?  If there was a crime, I am sure that some would have pressured the prosecutor to get an indictment.  


    Offline parentsfortruth

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    « Reply #9 on: September 06, 2011, 10:47:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote
    slight sins or transgressions of rules should also be corrected, when they are the occasion of grave scandal or disorder in a community, and superiors who are negligent about this commit mortal sin.


    I think the priestly authorization of what they fancy to be "white lies" (which are never justified and often far more serious than the priest rationalizes them to be) fall under this classification.  


    Quote from: Spriago-Clarke, The Catechism Explained
    What are the Reasons that should make us refrain from Untruthfulness ?

    1. The liar is like the devil and displeasing to God. He who forfeits the confidence of his fellow-men causes a great deal of harm and is capable of committing all manner of evil deeds. The liar resembles the devil, for the devil is a liar and the father thereof (John viii. 44). Remember how the serpent in paradise lied to Eve. Liars are children of the devil, not by nature, but by imitation.

    The liar is displeasing to God. God is truth itself, and therefore He abhors the liar. Our Lord did not speak as sharply of any one as of the Pharisees. And why? Because they were hypocrites (Matt, xxiii. 27). From every class of sinners He gave an example of one who was saved; e.g., Zacheus among usurers, the good thief among highwaymen, Magdalen and the Samaritan at Jacob s well among profligate women, Saul among persecutors of the Church, but not one single individual among liars and hypocrites did He mention as having sought and found pardon. Many a time God punished liars severely ; witness Ananias and his wife Saphira, who for their falsehood fell dead at St. Peter s feet (Acts v.) and Giezi, the servant of Eliseus, who was struck with leprosy for his lies and avarice (4 Kings v.). Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord (Prov. xii. 22). The liar forfeits the trust of his fellow-men. The shepherd who cried wolf when no wolf was near, found he was not believed when his flock was really attacked; his comrades had been so often deceived that they did not heed his cries. A liar is not trusted when he speaks the truth; he is hated by God and man. Liars often do a great deal of harm. The spies who went to view the Promised Land deceived the Israelites by their false report, and alarmed them so that they blasphemed God, wanted to stone the two spies who spoke the truth, and clamored to return to Egypt. See what mischief those men wrought: God declared His intention to destroy the people (Numb. xiii.). Jacob deceived his father and obtained his blessing fraudulently; his brother Esau threatened to kill him and Jacob was obliged to take to flight. He that hath no guard on his speech shall meet with evils (Prov. xiii. 3). The liar falls into many other sins.  Show me a liar and I will show you a thief.  Where you find hypocrisy, you find cheating and all manner of evil practices. A liar cannot possibly be God-fearing. The Holy Spirit will flee from the deceitful (Wisd. i. 5). All the piety and devotion of one whose words serve to conceal, not to express his thoughts, is a mere sham; do not associate with such a one, lest he corrupt you with his ungodly ways.  Lying men are without honor (Ecclus. xx. 28). The just shall hate a lying word  (Prov. xiii. 5).


    Thanks for this! Very good reading!
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #10 on: September 06, 2011, 11:07:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: gunfighter
    So let me guess, the prosecutor is a SGG cultist?  If there was a crime, I am sure that some would have pressured the prosecutor to get an indictment.  


    A thief who goes remains at large is still a criminal, but that's really beside the point. An abortion is a sin and a crime, yet there is no civil criminal offense.

    Fr. Cekada admits (when it's to his advantage) that the Priest/organization has no MORAL right to sell off a chapel paid for by the people over a course of 15 years. He has no moral right to confiscate a building fund. That's his justification for the takeover of the SSPX properties in the early 1980's.

    Quote from: Fr. Cekada, FE forum, 2008

    "The Nine vs. Lefebvre" - New Article by Fr. Cekada
    « Reply #44 on: October 09, 2008, 05:36:AM

    It saved our congregations — the people who PAID for the churches SSPX was getting — $145,000 that could be put towards the purchase of new churches where they wouldn't have to worry about doubtfully-ordained priests.

    Remember, SSPX didn't pay for those churches, and as far as we were concerned, they had no moral right to them anyway.


    The CAPS on word PAID is Fr. Cekada's emphasis, not mine.


    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline gunfighter

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    « Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 12:45:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB


    A thief who goes remains at large is still a criminal, but that's really beside the point. An abortion is a sin and a crime, yet there is no civil criminal offense.

    Fr. Cekada admits (when it's to his advantage) that the Priest/organization has no MORAL right to sell off a chapel paid for by the people over a course of 15 years. He has no moral right to confiscate a building fund. That's his justification for the takeover of the SSPX properties in the early 1980's.

    Quote from: Fr. Cekada, FE forum, 2008

    "The Nine vs. Lefebvre" - New Article by Fr. Cekada
    « Reply #44 on: October 09, 2008, 05:36:AM

    It saved our congregations — the people who PAID for the churches SSPX was getting — $145,000 that could be put towards the purchase of new churches where they wouldn't have to worry about doubtfully-ordained priests.

    Remember, SSPX didn't pay for those churches, and as far as we were concerned, they had no moral right to them anyway.


    The CAPS on word PAID is Fr. Cekada's emphasis, not mine.




    Apples and oranges.

    Theft is a crime.  It is a crime that is commonly enforced.  If money was stolen, you and Eamon would have been beating on the Franklin prosecutors door to get charges pursued.  So any reasonable person would conclude that your accusation is baseless and calumny.

    The SSPX situation and the Columbus situation are not analogous.  

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 01:07:06 PM »
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  • It's possible to violate the seventh commandment without technically breaking the law.  It's about the good faith use of funds and the malfeasance of those handling those funds.

    It's very wrong to sell off a property that parishioners contributed to building without compensating them.

    Offline gunfighter

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    « Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 01:58:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    It's possible to violate the seventh commandment without technically breaking the law.  It's about the good faith use of funds and the malfeasance of those handling those funds.

    It's very wrong to sell off a property that parishioners contributed to building without compensating them.


    You may think it is wrong, but it is not theft.  It is also not Catholic to think that by contributing to the construction/purchase of a church, the contributors become tenants in common.  




    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 02:09:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: gunfighter
    Quote from: SJB


    A thief who remains at large is still a criminal, but that's really beside the point. An abortion is a sin and a crime, yet there is no civil criminal offense.

    Fr. Cekada admits (when it's to his advantage) that the Priest/organization has no MORAL right to sell off a chapel paid for by the people over a course of 15 years. He has no moral right to confiscate a building fund. That's his justification for the takeover of the SSPX properties in the early 1980's.

    Quote from: Fr. Cekada, FE forum, 2008

    "The Nine vs. Lefebvre" - New Article by Fr. Cekada
    « Reply #44 on: October 09, 2008, 05:36:AM

    It saved our congregations — the people who PAID for the churches SSPX was getting — $145,000 that could be put towards the purchase of new churches where they wouldn't have to worry about doubtfully-ordained priests.

    Remember, SSPX didn't pay for those churches, and as far as we were concerned, they had no moral right to them anyway.


    The CAPS on word PAID is Fr. Cekada's emphasis, not mine.




    Apples and oranges.

    Theft is a crime.  It is a crime that is commonly enforced.  If money was stolen, you and Eamon would have been beating on the Franklin prosecutors door to get charges pursued.  So any reasonable person would conclude that your accusation is baseless and calumny.

    The SSPX situation and the Columbus situation are not analogous.  


    Theft is a sin and also a crime, if publicly manifest. I can't believe you think a man who commits theft is not morally deficient and a criminal until he is prosecuted and found guilty by the civil authorities.

    Fr. Cekada was saying legally they sued for the SSPX properties, which he knows has an unsavory appearance to many, and tried to justify this by saying the SSPX had no moral right to the properties to begin with, because they were PAID for by the people. The problem is the people are the ones with the moral rights to the properties, not the priests who may serve them, even if they think they "better serve" the faithful.

    When people gave to a building fund in Colunbus, they expected the money would be used for the purpose it was given. Whoever receives that money has a moral obligation to see it is reasonably used for the purpose for which it was given. This is just common sense and decency, something a liar and a thief doesn't have.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil