Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Mark 79 on October 23, 2022, 11:31:37 AM
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It seems that "Pelagian" is the Bogus Ordo's favorite ritual epithet.
As best I can tell, when used as a curse word, "Pelagian" is meant to convey that we practicing Catholics reject the "grace" of the novel made-up bullshit of the Bogus Ordo rabbis and counter-Magisterium.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-says-traditionalism-is-infidelity-to-the-catholic-church-and-vatican-ii/
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That's incredibly ironic :laugh2:
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https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm
…extracts from his lost work "Contra traducem peccati" — were branded as heretical (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm). These theses ran as follows:
- Even if Adam had not sinned (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), he would have died.
- Adam's sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) harmed only himself, not the human race (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm).
- Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.
- The whole human race (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12620b.htm) neither dies through Adam's sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) or death, nor rises again through the resurrection of Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm).
- The (Mosaic Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm)) is as good a guide to heaven (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm) as the Gospel.
- Even before the advent of Christ there were men who were without sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm).
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Bergoglio has no dea what "Pelagian" means. If he did, he'd open the cause of Pelagius for canonization. He clearly meant "Jansenist" or something along those lines.
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from the article:
Furthermore, as Bishop Athanasius Schneider has recalled (https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/bishop-schneider-how-church-could-correct-erroneous-view-that-god-wills-diversity-of-religions/), a November 16, 1964, note by the Council’s Secretary-General reads: “Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding.”
From Dignitatis Humanae:
This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom.
... [T]his doctrine of freedom has roots in divine revelation, and for this reason Christians are bound to respect it all the more conscientiously.
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https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm
…extracts from his lost work "Contra traducem peccati" — were branded as heretical (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm). These theses ran as follows:
- Even if Adam had not sinned (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), he would have died.
- Adam's sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) harmed only himself, not the human race (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm).
- Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.
- The whole human race (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12620b.htm) neither dies through Adam's sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) or death, nor rises again through the resurrection of Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12789a.htm).
- The (Mosaic Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm)) is as good a guide to heaven (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm) as the Gospel.
- Even before the advent of Christ there were men who were without sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm).
But hasn't it been traditionally taught (even if not as doctrine) that Adam, and all men, would eventually have died naturally, after living for many hundreds of years, and would have then gone to heaven, as they would have been without sin? (Not sure where the resurrection of the dead fits into this.)
That's what I've always understood, and will welcome correction if I'm wrong.
Or is it something that we don't know one way or the other? Speculative theology either way?
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But hasn't it been traditionally taught (even if not as doctrine) that Adam, and all men, would eventually have died naturally, after living for many hundreds of years, and would have then gone to heaven, as they would have been without sin? (Not sure where the resurrection of the dead fits into this.)
That's what I've always understood, and will welcome correction if I'm wrong.
Or is it something that we don't know one way or the other? Speculative theology either way?
How can there possibly be a traditional teaching on what might have been if....
The Catholic Church does not play let’s pretend.
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But hasn't it been traditionally taught (even if not as doctrine) that Adam, and all men, would eventually have died naturally, after living for many hundreds of years, and would have then gone to heaven, as they would have been without sin? (Not sure where the resurrection of the dead fits into this.)
That's what I've always understood, and will welcome correction if I'm wrong.
Or is it something that we don't know one way or the other? Speculative theology either way?
“(1) The sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) of Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) has injured the human race (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) at least in the sense that it has introduced death — "Wherefore as by one man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) entered into this world and by sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) death; and so death passed upon all men (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm)". Here there is question of physical death. First, the literal meaning of the word ought to be presumed unless there be some reason to the contrary. Second, there is an allusion in this verse to a passage in the Book of Wisdom (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15666a.htm) in which, as may be seen from the context, there is question of physical death. Wisdom 2:24 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/wis002.htm#vrs24): "But by the envy (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08326b.htm) of the devil (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm) death came into the world". Cf. Genesis 2:17 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen002.htm#vrs17); 3:3, 19 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen003.htm#vrs3); and another parallel passage in St. Paul (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) himself, 1 Corinthians 15:21 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co015.htm#vrs21): "For by a man came death and by a man the resurrection of the dead (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm)". Here there can be question only of physical death, since it is opposed to corporal resurrection (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm), which is the subject of the whole chapter (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co015.htm).
(2) Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) by his fault transmitted to us not only death but also sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), "for as by the disobedience of one man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) many [i.e., all men (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm)] were made sinners (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm)" (Romans 5:19 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom005.htm#vrs19)). How then could the Pelagians (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm), and at a later period Zwingli (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15772a.htm), say that St. Paul (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm)speaks only of the transmission of physical death? If according to them we must read death where the Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) wrote sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), we should also read that the disobedience of Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) has made us mortalwhere the Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) writes that it has made us sinners. But the word sinner has never meant mortal, nor has sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) ever meant death. Also in verse 12 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co015.htm#vrs12), which corresponds to verse 19 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co015.htm#vrs19), we see that by one man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) two things have been brought on all men (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm), sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) and death, the one being the consequence of the other and therefore not identical with it.
(3) Since Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) transmits death to his children by way of generation when he begets them mortal, it is by generation also that he transmits to them sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), for the Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) presents these two effects as produced at the same time (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) and by the same causality (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm). The explanation of the Pelagians (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11604a.htm) differs from that of St. Paul (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm). According to them the child who receives mortality at his birth receives sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm)from Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) only at a later period when he knows the sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) of the first man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) and is inclined to imitate it. The causality (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm) of Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) as regards mortality would, therefore, be completely different from his causality (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm) as regards sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). Moreover, this supposed influence of the bad example of Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) is almost chimerical; even the faithful when they sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) do not sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) on account of Adam's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm) bad example, a fortioriinfidels (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08002b.htm) who are completely ignorant (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm) of the history of the first man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm). And yet all men are, by the influence of Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm), sinners (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) and condemned (Romans 5:18, 19 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom005.htm#vrs18)). The influence of Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm)cannot, therefore, be the influence of his bad example which we imitate (Augustine, "Contra julian.", VI, xxiv, 75).
Moreover St. Paul (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm), and after him the councils, regarded death and original sin as two distinct things transmitted by Adam (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01129a.htm).”
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm
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How can there possibly be a traditional teaching on what might have been if....
The Catholic Church does not play let’s pretend.
[From the Constitution "cuм prae excelsa," Feb. 28, 1476]
1400 Dz 734 “…to reconcile with its author human nature exposed to eternal death because of the fall of the first man…”
"By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned" (Rm 5,12 (http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/g50.htm#fk) see n. 175).”
In the year AD 418, the Council of Carthage condemned the teachings of Pelagius as did the Council of Ephesus in AD 431. The Council of Carthage even stated: “Whoever says, that Adam was created mortal, and would, even without sin, have died by natural necessity, let him be anathema.” (Schaff 1891, p. 690).