Author Topic: N.O. Mass Has No Correlation With Loss of Faith (Read 4473 times)

stevusmagnus · « **on:** April 05, 2010, 12:36:50 PM »

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You make a wide swath of accusations against the OF; however, the majority of your accusations are simply post hoc, ergo propter hoc statements with no foundation other than they occured after the OF was introduced; and in fact, a number of them were occuring before the OF was introduced; logically that leads to the conclusion that it was not the OF which was the causitive factor.

People hear these accusations, and without any critical examination of what foundation supposedly lays under them, they repeat the accusation and lo and behold, another urban legend is born.

Church attendance started declining in the 1950's, long before Roncalli was Pope and well before work on the OF began. Likewise, ordinations fell off before that. Additionally, the sex abuse claims go back before Vatican 2 and a large number of the abusers were ordained before Vatican 2.

After Vatican 2, catechesis got thrown into the toilet and someone flushed, but there is no shown interconnection between the OF and the change from the Baltimore Catechism; that relates directly back to misdirection post Vatican 2 concerning catechesis itself on a separate track, because of the desire of some to get out of a doctrinal approach and into an experiential approach to teaching.

Having worked with Catholics Returning Home program and having talked with numerous others in similar programs, the people returning to the Church are not returning (nor did they leave) over issues of changes between the EF and the OF; they left over divorces, sex outside of marriage, lack of catechesis after Confirmation, relatively poor catechesis before Confirmation, going to college and getting swept up in challenges to their faith without sufficient foundation; the list goes on and on and amazingly it simply does not include people who quit over the change in the Mass. While there are some who left to go to SSPX, proportionally they are extremely small in numbers.

About the only issue you name that has any connection is the loss of reverence; and that issue has slowly been changing over the last 10 to 15 years, particularly as we have had the ordinations of the group called the John Paul priests. And granted that it has not shown everywhere in all dioceses to an equal amount, it is most definitely occuring; and if it is occuring then not all blame can be laid to the format of the Mass.

Alexandria · « **Reply #1 on:** April 05, 2010, 12:46:58 PM »

Stevus, why do you even bother with these people? They are willfully blind. The gap between you is beyond, to use one of their silly words, "bridging."

They have no idea what has been done to them because they cannot see the forest for the trees. They are beyond rehabilitation. They have no idea that they have had their faith altered, and wouldn't believe you even if you proved it to them. Facts mean nothing to them.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #2 on:** April 05, 2010, 12:56:07 PM »

Ehhh, I'm bored and it helps me refine my Traditional apologetic skills.

Everyone feel free to chime in with responses!

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** April 05, 2010, 01:14:15 PM »

I'd like to help, but it's almost like figuring out how to prove to someone that the sky is blue.

If they're denying it, it doesn't look good for them loving the truth at ALL -- on the contrary, they are willfully blind.

If someone can't see the intrinsic problems with the Novus Ordo and Vatican II ("the French Revolution in the Church" -- not my words), and how it LEADS to sex outside of marriage, etc. I think they are beyond help.

True, no one leaves because the Mass is said in English -- they leave because the Mass lacks relevance for them, or they feel it's "not for them" -- a more general reason like that.

Just like few people connect television with their children's materialism and impure behavior -- but the connection is there nonetheless. How do you prove it? CAN you prove it? Perhaps not.

Matthew

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** April 05, 2010, 01:17:00 PM »

If someone with a gun fires it, and a man goes down, it's easy to draw a connection between the two. It can be proven to most peoples' satisfaction.

The damage done by TV, the media, Hollywood, the Novus Ordo, etc. takes much longer to occur -- therefore it's impossible to prove a link between it and its logical consequences.

All you can do is show the intrinsic problems with it, and how it could easily lead to the conclusion. The fact that the conclusion exists makes it LIKELY that it did happen. But it's like circuмstantial evidence -- they can always blame something else.

"It's not the cell phone that caused my 10 year old's brain tumor. It was something in the water!"

"Eating nothing but McDonalds every day for 2 years didn't make me fat. It's in my genes."

etc.

How do you prove it one way or the other?

Matthew

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #5 on:** April 05, 2010, 01:48:12 PM »

Good points Matthew.

I was short on time, but I volleyed this in a quick response.

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VCII has failed in every goal it stated and every great fruit it promised. Judging by its own standards it was a failure.

The law of prayer is the law of belief. Catholics have prayed like Protestants (and sometimes pagans) for the last 50 years and their beliefs have followed suit.

The NO Mass has helped more than anything else to destroy the Faith of Catholics.

To deny this is to deny reality and to keep yourself from coming to the solution. You are fighting symptoms and not realizing the cause of the disease.

I suggest you check the index of leading indicators to get your facts straight regarding Mass attendance, vocations, etc. The evidence is overwhelming.

The number of abuse cases before the 1960's pales in comparison to the institutionalized ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and sex abuse afterwards.

It is amazing the lengths some will go to deny the obvious causes of such destruction, all to save face and save a Council that has had no good fruit in 50 years.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #6 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:06:51 PM »

His most recent response is a dodge..

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The original purpose of this thread was to ask what an individual could do to assist in getting people to know more about the EF and how to go about educating them about it. There have been ample discussions about Vatican 2, sɛҳuąƖ abuse by priests, changes within the Church since Vatican 2 and other issues that you bring up in other threads, and those discussions really belong there, and not here. sɛҳuąƖ abuse has nothing to do with teaching people about the EF. I would be happy to respond to you concerning these other issues on another thread or several of them, because they are all important issues. However, they are totally off topic for the OP ande really need to be addressed elsewhere.

He inaccurately describes the OP, which was...

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I have been the main mover behind starting a TLM in my parish. We have a great group of people but we are struggling to grow.

What in your experience is the best argument to support the TLM?

I responded with what amounts to a simple fruits argument that he apparently take issue with.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #7 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:13:51 PM »

My latest...

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The original post was not as you describe. It was as follows:

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"I have been the main mover behind starting a TLM in my parish. We have a great group of people but we are struggling to grow.

What in your experience is the best argument to support the TLM?"

I responded with a simple "fruits" argument that is obvious but one with which you take issue with.

It is not hard to see how the Novus Ordo and accompanying liturgical travesty has contributed to sɛҳuąƖ promiscuity and other immorality. I think you vastly underestimate the law of lex orendi, lex credendi. The clothing which modern teens and others wear to the Novus Ordo is but one example of the laxity in modesty which leads to immorality. This is apparent in most NO churches. It leads to a loss of Catholic sense and a breakdown and laxity of faith and morals.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #8 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:39:03 PM »

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Again, I do not disagree with you that the Church as well as society in general faces a lot of serious issues. I msot strongly disagree with you ;that the OF is the source of these problems, and I would invite you to start one or mroe threads on the issues if you wish. However, the intent of the thread started with the fact that the OP has the EF in his parish and wants to do something to support it and grow the attendance. Attacking the OF is not going to do that, and you can take that to the bank.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:51:07 PM »

There are two sides to all of this -- the faith and the Mass.

If you really believe that Vatican II was the entire cause of loss of faith, essentially you are saying that God willed evil on His faithful and holy people. This is why I do not buy the argument that everything was dandy before Vatican II and that Vatican II was some out-of-nowhere bombshell that ruined a thriving Church. I see it as more of a punishment.

The faith was slipping long before Vatican II, many people were already ecuмenical, many people had a "contraceptive mentality," many people were going to quickie fifteen-minute McDonald's Masses. "This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me." There was an immense pressure on the Catholic Church to get with the times, to modernize, to stop being reactionary and fuddy-duddy. The very concept of tradition and of the unbending Rock had been nearly forgotten.

Vatican II simply gave people what secretly they already wanted or thought they wanted. Then they realized they didn't want it. Because to be in Vatican II is to bend God's rules to the level of man. But if you're going to do that, why go to the strictest Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church, at all? There is a contradiction here -- the Catholic Church is for those who want the truth, who want to know God's laws, no matter how harsh. Take that away, and you just have another sect.

So the lukewarm were filtered out, a new group of nominal Catholics who are really kind of agape, Protestant-like faux-Catholics filtered in, and the only Catholics that remain in VII are those who simply ignore all the changes, and even they stand a good chance of eventually being infected by the "new ways."

At the same time, the watered-down Mass is where the atomic bomb was really dropped. I do not think this is the abomination of desolation anymore, but it's a foreshadowing that removes or diminishes the most necessary source of grace. This repulses the conversions of those with a lofty spirit, and undoubtedly has driven many to leave what they think is the Church. In my pagan days, seeing what the "Catholic Church" had become, with little effeminate hippie folk-singers chanting Kumbaya, I certainly had no desire to be Catholic. I thought it was pure cheese. But eventually God brought me in.

To sum up: It's all connected. It's not ALL about the Mass, but that is one of the biggest parts of it. Essentially, in the new Church, everything has been replaced by dummies and impostors: You have dummy monks, dummy nuns, dummy saints, dummy miracles, dummy Popes, and at the center of it all, a dummy Mass. It's like a movie set at Disneyland, not the Church.

God is undertaking a filtering process; He is separating the men from the boys. In our time, only those who work extremely hard to find the truth will attain it. God has had enough of the lukewarm, and He is spitting them out of His mouth.

Alexandria · « **Reply #10 on:** April 05, 2010, 02:59:29 PM »

Once again Raoul, I agree with you except for one part.

There is no way for anyone to remain a "good" Catholic in the novus ordo church. I used to think that it was but recently had my eyes opened. It is a poisonous atmosphere and, before you know it, you have imbibed conciliarism which is nothing other than protestantism with a semi-catholic veneer. Talk to anyone who thinks themselves "traditional" in the novus ordo for more than five minutes and you will see how infected they are with the conciliar faith.

By the way, Raoul, you seem much calmer. Why for the reason? :wink:

Raoul76 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:19:37 PM »

I forgot to mention that I agree with most of what SM's adversary said. He undervalues the importance of the Mass, for sure, but he does a good job exploding traditionalist myths.

I wouldn't say the root cause of the loss of faith is the Novus Ordo Mass. I'd say the root cause is modernity, the modern world and the pressure it has put on us about how we think and how we behave. This was at work even during the days of the Latin Mass, when people were sleeping through it.

But the Novus Ordo mass kills or diminishes grace and it adds yet another gigantic obstacle to a faith that was already slipping. It is like a traumatic head wound to a near-dead cancer patient. Hence, we are in the Great Apostasy. To find the faith in our time is simply a miracle -- no doubt about it.

Alexandria said:

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There is no way for anyone to remain a "good" Catholic in the novus ordo church. I used to think that it was but recently had my eyes opened. It is a poisonous atmosphere and, before you know it, you have imbibed conciliarism which is nothing other than protestantism with a semi-catholic veneer. Talk to anyone who thinks themselves "traditional" in the novus ordo for more than five minutes and you will see how infected they are with the conciliar faith.

All of those who began the traditionalist movement in the 70's had some exposure to the Novus Ordo Church. They survived it.

You're talking about the generic, run of the mill Novus Ordo Catholic and yeah, I have talked to some of them and know very well that their brains have been sucked out and replaced. It's like they have no background to their faith; they don't know about saints, they don't know about dogmas. You quote a fairly well-known saying of Jesus to them and it's like they've never heard it before. About all they know is the Golden Rule. "Jesus" as far as they're concerned is some vague, shadowy figure in the sky who helps them earn money and have BMWs. Just like with Protestants, as you say.

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By the way, Raoul, you seem much calmer. Why for the reason? :wink:

People in VII are sometimes calm also! I am going back to CMRI, but don't expect me to cotton to NFP anytime soon. I just realized that there was too much gray area around it for me to avoid Mass for that reason.

Alexandria · « **Reply #12 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:30:45 PM »

Exposure to the novus ordo for five years as opposed to forty-five is a big difference, wouldn't you say? It didn't happen overnight you know. These people do not even realize they are no longer Catholic. And sorrier still, even if they did, I don't think they'd care.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #13 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:32:07 PM »

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The fruits argument is one of the best to promote the TLM. One doesn't even need to get into the NO's devastation. Even Fr. Pacwa on EWTN agrees with the evident beautiful fruits of the TLM.

I was answering the original post as stated and my response stands. The Novus Ordo has borne nothing but bad fruit. If someone would refuse to attend the TLM upon being confronted with these facts, then the person is being insincere & stubborn and the fault would not lie in the messenger.

One way or another Catholics need to realize that their local NO Mass is bad for their spiritual health. Keeping silent on the matter only does them a disservice.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2010, 03:32:47 PM »

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So you've won a lot of people over the faith with this approach, huh?

Sorry, I just don't buy this, and I don't think I'm the only one. I'm very much in favor of not losing traditional practices, but to blame the OF/NO as producing "nothing but bad fruit" will strike people as either naive or disingenuous, and they will proceed to tune out whatever you say.