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Author Topic: N.O. Mass Has No Correlation With Loss of Faith  (Read 6102 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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N.O. Mass Has No Correlation With Loss of Faith
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2010, 07:46:20 PM »
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  • Matthew,

    Unfortunately you are WAY off.

    I've just uploaded a recent pic of myself below....



    Offline stevusmagnus

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    N.O. Mass Has No Correlation With Loss of Faith
    « Reply #46 on: April 07, 2010, 08:39:47 PM »
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  • I've been trying to spread Tradition through the European Disco community....

    Seriously, I hope it was obvious I was kidding.

    I notice I got ignored immediately!

    My apologies to whomever I offended.

    This is a pic of a black 70's actor.

    See what you've done Matthew? ;)


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    N.O. Mass Has No Correlation With Loss of Faith
    « Reply #47 on: April 08, 2010, 02:03:04 PM »
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  • Good post on state of NO on Rorate:

    Quote
    ""...it should be noted that many dioceses reputed to be orthodox, and even Rome, continue to witness all sorts of liturgical abuses..."

    On my peregrinations, personal experience confirms that the liturgical situation is so dire it is beyond repair. If Pope Benedict XVI really took this cause on wholesale he would fail. Each change in the NO results in various interpretations; partial adoptions and even total avoidance for other permutations often based on d-i-y approaches. Sooner or later the NO will have to be scrapped as it contains the source of its own demise. It is based on the principles of change and adaptation to modern man which is a hyper-dynamic phenomenon today using ever-adapting vernacular tongues. In many years I have never seen two identical versions. Only an unchanging Roman Rite in Latin will suffice to restore and recentralise liturgical discipline.

    It is difficult not to be skeptical about any episcopal appointment since they nearly all appear to have become liberal in one sense or another. That is unless they are committed to traditional confraternities.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    N.O. Mass Has No Correlation With Loss of Faith
    « Reply #48 on: April 12, 2010, 08:53:38 PM »
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  • I posted the following after someone put up an article regarding the leading indicators of stats following VCII.

    "Originally Posted by stevusmagnus  
    Thanks Pro. I was about to post that myself.

    It pretty much tells any reasonable person what they need to know about the reform.

    If the Church were a business and an executive had executed a plan with these results he would have been fired a long time ago and the company would have changed direction immediately."

    This was the primary response:

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    A reasonable person would look at what else was happening at the same time, to determine what the actual casuation was.

    It is only the simplistic person who will buy into the post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument for causation.

    The sacrament that is more telling than the reduction in the number of vocations is marriage; the fall-off of marriages and the surrounding issues are far more valid evidence of the causation than simply looking at the reduction in the number of ordinations.

    Marriage has been impacted by a number of issues, including materialism (which took off after WW2, when we started the move to dual incomes and women moving into non-traditional jobs); the rise of ABC which started in 1930 and by the early 1960's was fueled by the new form - the Pill; the almost instantaneous rejection of Humanae Vitae and the the following massive increase in the use of ABC; the sɛҳuąƖ revolution which reached a fever pitch in the mid 1960s; the gradual move since the 1960s to later and later marriage; the change in civil laws which previously made criminal both ABC and "shacking up" and the massive increase in both categories since then; and the move to "no fault" divorce which lead to a mssive increase in divorces.

    Those who obstinately confuse the reform intended by Vatican 2 with the dissent that followed after Vatican 2 and is nowhere prompted by the docuмents - or for that matter, the OF - are either too intellectually lazy to do any research, or they are approaching intellectual dishonesty.

    Many of the same issues that impacted the sacrament of marriage have had an impact - direct or indirect - on other sacraments. The dissent that over-ran HV spread like wild fire; if the Vatican was (theoretically) so far off the mark on sɛҳuąƖ issues and was to be ignored, then where else were they to be ignored? Where else were they simply a bunch of out-of-touch old people who simply "didn't get it"?

    It is not the alternatives which are within the OF which caused priests to so thoroughly ignore the rubrics; it was the expanding idea that whatever Rome said was irrelevant, and that relevance had to be applied at the local level.

    Vatican 2 did not create the changes in society, nor do the docuмents support any of the craziness that has gone on since 1965. Nor was it a few priests, ordained after 1965, who gave us the chaos in the OF; it was priests who were ordained before Vatican 2, many of them well before it. Blaming the necessary reform of the Church - which according to this pope and the last one still has not been fully implemented - for the subsequent chaos is simply to ignore the multitude of issues impacting both the clergy and the people in the pews. Experimentation had already started in the Mass before we got the OF handed to us, and that at a time where the rubrics were more formal and complex and a time where authority was far more reaching and (supposedly) effective.

    And any business which fires its leader over things which the leader has no control is a business which will fail shortly.


    Suggestions?

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #49 on: April 12, 2010, 09:00:15 PM »
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  • It's gratutious special pleading.  There's not much you can do except expose such fallacies and let him wander in the wilderness of his imagination.  


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #50 on: April 17, 2010, 03:03:45 PM »
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  • Original heretical definition of Mass in the GIRM of Paul VI

    "The Lord's Supper or Mass is a sacred meeting or assembly of the People of God, met together under the presidency of the priest, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. Thus the promise of Christ, "where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them", is eminently true of the local community in the Church (Mt. XVIII, 20)".

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    It is an argument from absence. You may say in another one hundred posts that it is heresy. I will not accept it as such. When I see words such as "implicitly" and phrases like "at least in practice" I see a hedging of truth, that is, trying to make something exist in a vacuum. It is not the definition of heresy. This is the definition of heresy.

    The obstinate denial after Baptism of a truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith (2089; cf. 465).

    No denial equate to no heresy.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #51 on: April 20, 2010, 10:46:57 AM »
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  • I asked a poster what it meant that Lutherans have no problem with saying the NO basically word for word. His response?

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    That the Lutherans are so theologically weak minded that they can take something that is totally and distinctly Catholic and use it as their own without even comprehending the theology behind it. They like the sound of the words without the intellectual ability to understand the deep meanings behind them, much like people who quote Shakespeare because it sounds high brow, yet have never read a total work of his.


    He had asked if I'd be happy if the Lutherans copied the TLM. I told him if they did so, they'd be Catholic. His response?

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    Nice attempt at avoiding the question so I will ask again; if the Lutherans copied the Tridentine Missal for their service books, would you have a problem with "it."

    They've already copied a Catholic missal and yet are still not Catholic. Your logic is flawed.


    I  then pointed out that in 1969, Max Thurian, an important protestant theologian, who helped found the ecuмenical Taizé community in France, made this statement: "It is now theologically possible for Protestants to use the same Mass as Catholics."

    His response:

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    I will ask this once again; PLEASE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE OF ANYTHING PROTESTANT IN THE MISSAL OF POPE PAUL VI.

    Just because the confused theology of a protestant allows the use of liturgical books that are not part of their faith does not mean that there is anything inherently flawed in the liturgy. By your logic, the Bible itself is questionable since so many atrocities have been committed throughout the centuries using the Bible as a source of authority.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #52 on: April 20, 2010, 10:54:58 AM »
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    As has been mentioned numerous times before, Catholics did not leave the Church because of the change in liturgy (and, apparently, neither did the change in the liturgy bring in the wayward protestants; perhaps there is some other underlying element?); the continuance of the latin Mass would have seen the same loss of souls.


    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #53 on: April 20, 2010, 10:57:52 AM »
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  • He deals in gratutious assertions all day long.  

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #54 on: April 20, 2010, 11:10:38 AM »
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  • Quote
    I will ask this once again; PLEASE SHOW ME AN EXAMPLE OF ANYTHING PROTESTANT IN THE MISSAL OF POPE PAUL VI.


    According to his own logic it would be a moot point since the rite can be contorted and adapted in any way at all without any effect on the Church at all or without any concern regarding whether or not anti-catholic heretics can in good conscience adopt it.  Nothing means nothing and everything means everything.

    The evil of the N.O.M. consists primarily in redacting catholic elements and adapting it to an underlying theology which departs from catholic doctrine.  In order to demonstrate this, one has to examine first its underlying principles.  But if he is unmoved by the fact that the Catholic liturgy was mutilated by an unheard of motive called ecuмenism then one wonders what would move him at all?  His sense is too deadened to even comprehend the magnitude of such a proposition.    

    Quote
    Just because the confused theology of a protestant allows the use of liturgical books that are not part of their faith does not mean that there is anything inherently flawed in the liturgy. By your logic, the Bible itself is questionable since so many atrocities have been committed throughout the centuries using the Bible as a source of authority.


    If what they once abhorred and condemned they now accept and practice, logic would dictate that something is amiss.  His reference to the Bible is futile for it has not changed one iota.  The fact that a man can steal it from the Church and abuse it to his own ends is simply a testament to his own defect.

     

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #55 on: April 20, 2010, 11:14:00 AM »
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  • Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #56 on: April 20, 2010, 11:22:36 AM »
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  • Quote
    Actually, Mass attendance prior to the Council was already in decline here in America during the "Golden Age" of the 1950's, the same with vocations.  YOUR claim is unsupported by statistical data. Attendance in Europe had been in decline, too, before the Council.  So there.  It has been posted here nearly ad nauseum that people left because the Church did not change its classic stance on issues such as divorce and birth control.


    You have yet to back up your assertions of Mass attendance and vocations in the 50's with statistical data. We have copied and pasted our data with a link. Until you can do the same your assertions are hollow.

    No matter how many times you post something it does not make it true. Differing with the Church on divorce and birth control in particular do not cause people to leave the Church. A vast majority of Catholics in the Church today believe and practice divorce and birth control.

    Those who hit the road, did so immediately after and following the Council. A Council that failed in every stated goal. Once again, please tell me one goal stated by the Council that it achieved? What are the "good fruits" of the Council?


    Quote
    Please cite one instance where protestants celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass with a belief in the True Presence according to a liturgy of the Catholic Church.


    That's just it! They can say the exact words of the Novus Ordo Mass and not believe in the Real Presence (just like most NO Catholics today) and they can do so because the Rite is so ambiguous. That's our entire point.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #57 on: April 20, 2010, 11:26:05 AM »
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  • By the way, it seems the new Neo-Cath talking point on VCII and the NO is that Mass attendance and vocations began to decline in the 50's.

    I'm hearing this all of a sudden and frequently now. This must be their new "defense" of the Council in the face of overwhelming statistical data.

    As of yet they have provided no numbers. If they ever do, we need to be able to counteract their assertion behind whatever numbers they authentically produce.

    See, this is why debating these people is valuable. We need to know what they are up to and get responses ready. If we don't they can mislead a lot of people as many of us were mislead by the liberal/ Neo-Cath complex for years.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #58 on: April 20, 2010, 11:30:17 AM »
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  • His lame response to my 5:14 post...

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    please show me from the missal of pope paul vi anything that is protestant.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #59 on: April 20, 2010, 11:34:59 AM »
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  • Quote
    please show me from the missal of pope paul vi anything that is protestant.


    So this is your only response to everything I posted and quoted for you?

    Quotations from a Lutheran minister present and the architect of the New Mass mean nothing ?

    As I've said repeatedly, what is Protestant about the New Mass is not so much what is in it as what is not in it. Look at the differences in the offeratory. Bugnini took an explicitly Catholic Mass and deformed it into an ambiguous rite able to be said in good faith by Protestants.

    Cite me one instance where Protestants have ever used the Missal of Pius V.