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Author Topic: My Crazy scenario staring Ladislaus  (Read 9856 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Re: My Crazy scenario staring Ladislaus
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2021, 11:40:10 AM »
You were right the first time.  No layman can teach the Church, and no layman can exercise jurisdiction, with the former requiring a bishop and the latter at least a cleric.
One can have a clerical office of jurisdiction but not order.
Quote
"When the canonical ɛƖɛctıon has taken place, the junior Cardinal Deacon summons the Secretary of the Sacred College, the Prefect of Apostolic Ceremonies and two Masters of Ceremonies into the chapel, and the Dean of the Sacred College in the name of all asks the one elected whether he accepts the office. He must express his acceptance or refusal of the office within the period of time determined by the Sacred College by majority vote of the Cardinals. The moment he accepts, he is the true Pope and obtains and may exercise full and absolute jurisdiction over the whole world. The Dean asks him what name he chooses. The acceptance of the office and the choice of a name are then certified by docuмent. This done, the Cardinals show the first "adoration" to the new Pope and the Te Deum is sung, after which the first Cardinal Deacon announces the new Pope to the people, before whom after a short interval the new Pope appears and gives the blessing Urbi et Orbi. This is followed by the second "adoration" by the Cardinals. The Conclave is then opened at the command of the Pope and this is certified by docuмent. Those outside who are accustomed to be admitted are then brought in for the "adoration." The third adoration by the Cardinals is left for a time to be set by the Pope and announced by the Prefect of Apostolic Ceremonies. If the one elected is not a priest or bishop, he is to be ordained or consecrated by the Dean of the Sacred College, who in this case wears the palium. In the absence of the Dean, this privilege belongs to the Subdean; and if he, too, is absent, to the senior Cardinal Suburbicarian Bishop. Finally, the coronation of the new Pope by the first Cardinal Deacon takes place.'" Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis Pius XII, #7, December 8, 1945
Note how this says how the pope gets jurisdiction the moment he accepts and speaks of the possibility of a layman getting elected. However, the one elected must be willing to be ordained and consecrated.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: My Crazy scenario staring Ladislaus
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2021, 11:59:44 AM »
One can have a clerical office of jurisdiction but not order.

I'm not sure what you're saying.  As I said, you have to be at least a cleric to have jurisdiction ... of course that could be done in 30 seconds after the papal ɛƖɛctıon of a layman.  This was demonstrated by someone here on CI some weeks or months ago in another thread.  You can't have a layman having power over clerics, as that would be fatal to any notion of ecclesiastical hierarchy.

You'll notice that even Pius XII states that the papal coronation must follow any necessary ordination / consecration.  Theologians who dealt with the possibility of a layman being elected and then refusing to be ordained / consecrated stated that this would be an implied refusal of office ... so that Church could then reject that guy as not having accepted the office and proceed to elect someone else.  These are some of the same concepts as are behind sedeprivationism and have been well argued by the sedeprivationists.  Even Pius XII stated that he had to be WILLING to be ordained/consecrated.  That's inherent in the idea of accepting office.

It's similar to a marriage that has been ratum but not consummatum ... "ratified" but not "consummated" ... and therefore able to be dissolved.


Offline Cryptinox

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Re: My Crazy scenario staring Ladislaus
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2021, 12:49:30 PM »
I'm not sure what you're saying.  As I said, you have to be at least a cleric to have jurisdiction ... of course that could be done in 30 seconds after the papal ɛƖɛctıon of a layman.  This was demonstrated by someone here on CI some weeks or months ago in another thread.  You can't have a layman having power over clerics, as that would be fatal to any notion of ecclesiastical hierarchy.

You'll notice that even Pius XII states that the papal coronation must follow any necessary ordination / consecration.  Theologians who dealt with the possibility of a layman being elected and then refusing to be ordained / consecrated stated that this would be an implied refusal of office ... so that Church could then reject that guy as not having accepted the office and proceed to elect someone else.  These are some of the same concepts as are behind sedeprivationism and have been well argued by the sedeprivationists.  Even Pius XII stated that he had to be WILLING to be ordained/consecrated.  That's inherent in the idea of accepting office.

It's similar to a marriage that has been ratum but not consummatum ... "ratified" but not "consummated" ... and therefore able to be dissolved.
I know the layman must be WILLING to get ordained and consecrated. But as long as he is willing to get ordained and consecrated he gets supreme jurisdiction over the whole Church the very second he accepts the papacy by divine law per Florence and VAS.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: My Crazy scenario staring Ladislaus
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2021, 12:53:32 PM »
I know the layman must be WILLING to get ordained and consecrated. But as long as he is willing to get ordained and consecrated he gets supreme jurisdiction over the whole Church the very second he accepts the papacy by divine law per Florence and VAS.

No, that's now how theologians interpret Florence.  Florence is silent about laymen but is laying out a general principle assuming an ordinary ɛƖɛctıon in which one of the Bishop Cardinals was selected.  That is why it makes no mention of the elected needing to be ordained and consecrated before being crowned.  VAS has gaps in it too.  It doesn't mention the willingness to be ordained as a requirement.  Then it talks about having jurisdiction, which is in fact the case if he's at least a cleric, which is being assumed in a normal papal ɛƖɛctıon.

There's only that one statement by Pius XII elsewhere, and it's just plain wrong.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: My Crazy scenario staring Ladislaus
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2021, 03:17:03 PM »
No, that's now how theologians interpret Florence.  Florence is silent about laymen but is laying out a general principle assuming an ordinary ɛƖɛctıon in which one of the Bishop Cardinals was selected.  That is why it makes no mention of the elected needing to be ordained and consecrated before being crowned.  VAS has gaps in it too.  It doesn't mention the willingness to be ordained as a requirement.  Then it talks about having jurisdiction, which is in fact the case if he's at least a cleric, which is being assumed in a normal papal ɛƖɛctıon.

There's only that one statement by Pius XII elsewhere, and it's just plain wrong.

Honestly Lad, this reeks of pride. Pope Pius XII is “just plain wrong”, but you are right?  :facepalm: I’ll take my direction from the Pope, thank you.