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Author Topic: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White  (Read 10018 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
« Reply #165 on: December 17, 2019, 06:36:58 AM »
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    • XavierSem, I have explained it clearly, but apparently you choose to be bound to the Pied Piper, to authority at the expense of truth, hopefully you will figure it out at some point, but first you need to unlearn the errors you've learned. FWIW, if black is black but the pope says black is white, he's preaching a different Gospel, let him be anathema.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #166 on: December 17, 2019, 06:47:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 15, 2019, 01:42:28 PM
    Speaking of tradition, how many examples of popes erring gravely in faith & morals can anyone sight in 2000 year history of the Church? That is where I would go to show that the popes are protected from erring on faith & morals.   Today I could list 1000's since Vatican II that have proven out over 60 years.
    The whole talk is well worth hearing, it's almost as if Fr. Hesse was reading this thread, but Fr. Hesse has a few examples for you, start at the 19:39 mark and listen till 28:00.

    https://youtu.be/1FAXaqsVOBg?t=1176
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #167 on: December 17, 2019, 07:33:45 AM »
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    • Quote
    FWIW, if black is black but the pope says black is white, he's preaching a different Gospel, let him be anathema.
    So, what it comes down to, you are saying, by thus contradicting St. Ignatius word for word, is that you don't believe the Saints?

    Well, as you wish. This is what Vatican I says, "the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60].

    7. This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole Church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/first-vatican-council-1505

    Since the Pope has the gift of truth and never failing faith, he cannot fail in the faith. That's why St. Robert proves Pope Honorius was never actually a heretic, but was only falsely slandered as such. St. Alphonsus shows the same to be true. Popes can't be heretics. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #168 on: December 17, 2019, 08:05:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on December 17, 2019, 07:33:45 AM
    So, what it comes down to, you are saying, by thus contradicting St. Ignatius word for word, is that you don't believe the Saints?
    Quote from the OP, St. Ignatius:
    “Thirteenth rule – To always be on the side of truth, we must follow this norm: the white that I see is black, if the Holy Church so decides it..."

    What you see:
    “Thirteenth rule – To always be on the side of truth, we must follow this norm: the white that I see is black, if the Pope so decides it..."


    The Church is Christ, the pope is not Christ, the pope is not the Church. How anyone can consistently confuse this is beyond me.

    Pope Pius XII - His encyclical starts out: "The doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church...." And he repeats this many more times throughout that encyclical, which is even named, Mystici Corporis Christi (The Mystical Body of Christ)  

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #169 on: December 17, 2019, 08:25:44 AM »
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    • See, I completely agree with XavierSem's understanding of the Magisterium.  This CATHOLIC understanding of the Magisterium is in fact what's behind sedevacantism, since this failure on a grand scale of the Magisterium and Church's Universal Discipline is not possible given a legitimate pope.  Xavier feels that there has been no grand-scale failure ... and that's where we disagree.  Most R&R types (Stubborn, Pax, Praeter on this thread here) feel that there has been a grand failure, but they think it's possible for this to happen with a legitimate pope.  So one could draw a little diagram.


                                  SEDEVACANTISTS      R&R        XavierSem and Conservative NovusOrdites 
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    GRAND FAILURE?               Y                     Y                             N
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    LEGIT POPE?                      N                     Y                             Y


    See, the Sedevacantists agree with XavierSem (and conservative NovusOrdites) that both Grand Failure and Legitimate Pope cannot both be true.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #170 on: December 17, 2019, 08:33:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 17, 2019, 08:05:34 AM
    The Church is Christ, the pope is not Christ, the pope is not the Church. How anyone can consistently confuse this is beyond me.

    Uhm, ubi petrus, ibi ecclesia sound familiar to you?

    Papal Magisterium = the Church's Magisterium.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #171 on: December 17, 2019, 08:49:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on December 17, 2019, 06:30:12 AM
    The Church's Teaching is guaranteed by God to not be contrary to the Truth, since She is the pillar and ground of the Truth, as Sacred Scripture says. Will check back later on. God Bless.

    Agreed.  Certainly, however, there can be small mistakes here or there, or various times the Church might "change her mind" about some detail or application of doctrine, but as a whole, and substantially, the Church cannot teach error or promulgate a Universal Discipline that displeases God and harms souls.

    I simply cannot reconcile the doctrinal errors of Vatican II and the New Mass with this.  Vatican II ecclesiology is particularly problematic.

    Sister Lucy indicated that the Third Secret of Fatima needed to be revealed by around 1960 because it would be "much clearer" then.  What happened around 1960?  Also, some who have read the Secret say that it refers to an apostasy "from the top".  We look at the background and history of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Francis.  We know that the enemies of the Church have been trying to plant one of their agents in the Holy See for centuries now.  Pope Leo XIII's original prayer to St. Michael contains a reference to the enemies of the Church attempting to replace the See of Peter with "the throne of their abominable impiety".  Vatican II practically enshrines the Masonic principles of "liberte, egalite, fraternite" in (purported) Catholic teaching.  It has Masonic fingerprints all over it.  They have hoisted up a false ecclesiology that is the root of all their errors.  Then if you look at the evidence for the fact that Cardinal Siri had been elected and then forcibly replaced by Roncalli, put all these data points together and one picture emerges:

    Judaeo-Masonic-Communist agents have infiltrated the papacy and have wreaked havoc on the Church.  We see from the fruits of Vatican II alone that it could not have come from the Holy Catholic Church.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #172 on: December 17, 2019, 09:25:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 17, 2019, 08:25:44 AM
    See, the Sedevacantists agree with XavierSem (and conservative NovusOrdites) that both Grand Failure and Legitimate Pope cannot both be true.
    Correct. The Pied Piper misleads them both, one into sacrificing the truth so as to "follow the infallibly safe pope", the other into disbelieving their own idea of what the pope is (always infallibly safe), as they reject the pope because it turns out that he is not always infallibly safe to follow.


    Quote from: Ladislaus on December 17, 2019, 08:33:07 AM
    Uhm, ubi petrus, ibi ecclesia sound familiar to you?

    Papal Magisterium = the Church's Magisterium.
    When he defines a doctrine ex cathedra or preaches Catholic truths, yes, because the Church's magisterium is always infallible. When he speaks private or public heresy or preaches error, no, because while the Church's magisterium is always infallible, the pope is not always infallible. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #173 on: December 17, 2019, 09:37:15 AM »
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    • You guys just use the word "Magisterium" in a too general sense.  You make no distinctions for the 3 categories:  SOLEMN (pope alone defining truths) vs UNIVERSAL (pope with bishops reiterating past truths in a definitive way) vs ORDINARY (all else that's not the first 2 categories...interviews, sermons, speeches, encyclicals, papal bulls, even conciliar docuмents...it all depends on the language used, because this determines the authority of the teaching). 
    .
    The first two categories (Solemn, Universal) are infallible; the 3rd category of Ordinary is not.  The difference is the level of authority used.  The Ordinary Magisterium can never be infallible because it is never definitive.  The Ordinary is able to err precisely because it does not use Apostolic authority to command assent and acceptance. 
    .
    The Ordinary Magisterium CAN BE ELEVATED to either Solemn or Universal, if the proper language/intent/subject matter is used by the pope (i.e. he speaks definitively, with papal authority, with the intent to bind the faithful, on a matter of faith/morals).  If the proper specifications are not followed (per V1) then the magisterium is just ordinary (and consequently fallible and able to err).
    .
    V2 was of the ordinary magisterium because it was not infallible.  It didn't bind anyone to anything.  The pope and all the churchmen present were not protected from error by infallibility.  They have admitted it multiple times.  They have admitted that V2 can be questioned, challenged and that it must be "interpreted" in the light of Tradition.  Anything which requires interpretation is necessarily not authoritative.  Contrast this to dogma, which is clear, concise and meant 1) to be accepted with no interpretation, 2) with full assent, and 3) necessary for salvation.  V2 requires none of this, so it's not protected from error.  Christ only promised protection to CHURCH TEACHINGS.  Something which can be questioned is not a teaching.   
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #174 on: December 17, 2019, 09:42:56 AM »
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    the Church cannot teach error or promulgate a Universal Discipline that displeases God and harms souls.

    I simply cannot reconcile the doctrinal errors of Vatican II and the New Mass with this.  Vatican II ecclesiology is particularly problematic.

    A universal discipline is necessarily obligatory, and applies to the whole church (or at least to an entire rite) but V2 is not obligatory in ANY sense, and so it applies to no one, so it's not a Universal Discipline.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #175 on: December 17, 2019, 10:05:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 17, 2019, 09:37:15 AM
    You guys just use the word "Magisterium" in a too general sense.  You make no distinctions for the 3 categories:  SOLEMN (pope alone defining truths) vs UNIVERSAL (pope with bishops reiterating past truths in a definitive way) vs ORDINARY (all else that's not the first 2 categories...interviews, sermons, speeches, encyclicals, papal bulls, even conciliar docuмents...it all depends on the language used, because this determines the authority of the teaching).
    .
    The first two categories (Solemn, Universal) are infallible; the 3rd category of Ordinary is not.  The difference is the level of authority used.  The Ordinary Magisterium can never be infallible because it is never definitive.  The Ordinary is able to err precisely because it does not use Apostolic authority to command assent and acceptance.
    I agree re: no distinctions, but the OM is infallible because it too are those truths contained in the magisterium.

    For example:
    A mother teaching her child the necessity of the sacrament of baptism, *she* is not infallible, but *the teaching* is. That teaching is one of those truths contained in the magisterium V1 taught of which we are bound to believe, which in this instance was taught by the child's mother, but could have been taught by nun, priest or pope - in this example, Authority does not decide error because this teaching is taken from the universal magisterium. It is the truth we're after here, not the person teaching it.

    OTOH, if the mother, or priest or pope were ever to teach that all the souls in Limbo were baptized, obviously that is not the truth, it is in fact obviously contrary to the truth, hence that teaching is not a teaching of the Church therefore not in the magisterium as taught at V1.

    The typical comeback is; "that's ridiculous, as if anyone can know true teaching without the pope or council". To which I reply, after 2000 years of popes, theologians, fathers and the promulgation of the true faith taught throughout the world, that assertion is in and of itself, altogether ridiculous.  


    Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 17, 2019, 09:42:56 AM
    A universal discipline is necessarily obligatory, and applies to the whole church (or at least to an entire rite) but V2 is not obligatory in ANY sense, and so it applies to no one, so it's not a Universal Discipline.
    What is the Church's Universal Discipline?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #176 on: December 17, 2019, 10:21:48 AM »
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    I agree re: no distinctions, but the OM is infallible because it too are those truths contained in the magisterium.
    I think you're confusing terms.  The truths of the Faith are doctrines.  The Magisterium is the ACT of teaching.  The Magisterium is the AUTHORITY behind the PERSONS who teach.  The magisterium is NOT teachings.

    Some use the term of "magisterium" to refer to a "collection" of teachings (i.e. the Vatican 1 magisterium), but I think this is too confusing.  I don't know if i'm correct, but it's my opinion.

    Quote
    For example:
    A mother teaching her child the necessity of the sacrament of baptism, *she* is not infallible, but *the teaching* is. That teaching is is one of those truths contained in the magisterium V1 taught of which we are bound to believe, which in this instance was taught by the child's mother, but could have been taught by nun, priest or pope - in this example, Authority does not decide error because this teaching is taken from the universal magisterium. It is the truth we're after here, not the person teaching it.
    1.  The necessity of baptism is a doctrine or a truth.  This is separate from the "V1 magisterium" which is simply those truths which V1 commentated on.  The necessity of baptism is part of multiple "magisteriums" since it's been part of many different church councils over the centuries.
    .
    The mother is not part of the magisterium, ever.  A priest/bishop/pope can be because only they have teaching authority.  (Even strictly speaking, a priest has no teaching authority, but only has it because a Bishop delegates it to him).

    Quote
    OTOH, if the mother, or priest or pope were ever to teach that all the souls in Limbo were baptized, obviously that is not the truth, it is in fact obviously contrary to the truth, hence that teaching is not a teaching of the Church therefore not in the magisterium as taught at V1.
    The use of the word "teach" is not limited enough, when it comes to discussion of the magisterium.  Doctrine is a teaching with a capital "T", because it comes from the pope and is definitive.  A mother/priest teaches the catechism with a lowercase "t" because they could (in theory) explain it incorrectly at times, because they aren't infallible.  This is also why the catechism is not infallible, because it is a teaching (lowercase "t") which is basically a reiteration of doctrine, but could contain error.
    .
    The only true exercise of the magisterium is related to doctrine.  All things are compared to doctrine and this is the litmus test for all non-infallible teachings.  There's no such thing as V1 magisterium vs Trent's magisterium vs V2's magisterium.  (unless you want to insert the idea of the "ordinary" magisterium, which means the preaching/speeches of a particular pope...but again, these are teachings with a lowercase "t" and are fallible, because unless a pope is teaching doctrine, then the magisterium (as this word has been used up until modern times) is not in use.)
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #177 on: December 17, 2019, 10:55:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 17, 2019, 10:21:48 AM
    I think you're confusing terms.  The truths of the Faith are doctrines.  The Magisterium is the ACT of teaching.  The Magisterium is the AUTHORITY behind the PERSONS who teach.  The magisterium is NOT teachings.

    Some use the term of "magisterium" to refer to a "collection" of teachings (i.e. the Vatican 1 magisterium), but I think this is too confusing.  I don't know if i'm correct, but it's my opinion.
    It is very confusing when one keeps thinking that the magisterium is in some way human or some variation of humans.  


    V1 says we are to believe *teachings* ("all those things") which are "contained in" Scripture, tradition or *in* her ordinary and universal magisterium.
    Quote
    V1: "Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium".


    How is it that people believe that "all those things" are human at all?
    How is it that "all those things which are contained in" the ordinary and universal magisterium are human at all?

    Please explain.


    He is talking about teachings! We are to believe teachings!
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #178 on: December 17, 2019, 11:26:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 17, 2019, 08:49:29 AM
    Agreed.  Certainly, however, there can be small mistakes here or there, or various times the Church might "change her mind" about some detail or application of doctrine, but as a whole, and substantially, the Church cannot teach error or promulgate a Universal Discipline that displeases God and harms souls.

    I simply cannot reconcile the doctrinal errors of Vatican II and the New Mass with this.  Vatican II ecclesiology is particularly problematic.

    Sister Lucy indicated that the Third Secret of Fatima needed to be revealed by around 1960 because it would be "much clearer" then.  What happened around 1960?  Also, some who have read the Secret say that it refers to an apostasy "from the top".  We look at the background and history of John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Francis.  We know that the enemies of the Church have been trying to plant one of their agents in the Holy See for centuries now.  Pope Leo XIII's original prayer to St. Michael contains a reference to the enemies of the Church attempting to replace the See of Peter with "the throne of their abominable impiety".  Vatican II practically enshrines the Masonic principles of "liberte, egalite, fraternite" in (purported) Catholic teaching.  It has Masonic fingerprints all over it.  They have hoisted up a false ecclesiology that is the root of all their errors.  Then if you look at the evidence for the fact that Cardinal Siri had been elected and then forcibly replaced by Roncalli, put all these data points together and one picture emerges:

    Judaeo-Masonic-Communist agents have infiltrated the papacy and have wreaked havoc on the Church.  We see from the fruits of Vatican II alone that it could not have come from the Holy Catholic Church.
    I think Vatican ii is dangerously vague and sometimes wrong.  But I don’t think that being novus ordo is an automatic ticket to Hell.  Where does that put me? 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #179 on: December 17, 2019, 11:35:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 17, 2019, 09:25:24 AM
    Correct. The Pied Piper misleads them both, one into sacrificing the truth so as to "follow the infallibly safe pope", the other into disbelieving their own idea of what the pope is (always infallibly safe), as they reject the pope because it turns out that he is not always infallibly safe to follow.

    Stubborn, you just never have grasped this distinction.  SVs reject these men as non-popes.  You beg the question, assume that they're popes, and then claim sedevacantists reject the popes in principle.
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