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Author Topic: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White  (Read 10016 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2019, 05:04:42 PM »
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  • Can anyone define Gallicanism?
    This is not a Catholic source, but it gives you a basic understanding of Gallicanism:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallicanism
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #31 on: December 11, 2019, 05:26:59 PM »
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  • No, God did not will that the Cristeros win. That’s why they lost. Everything that happens in the world, good or bad, is God’s will. This is some of the most fundamental Catholic teaching.  
    If that is the case, the God wills different religions as Pope Francis said. And God wills for people to go to hell.
    But that is not the case. God allows it happen, or permits it to happen, but does not positivity will it.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #32 on: December 11, 2019, 05:47:51 PM »
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  • If that is the case, the God wills different religions as Pope Francis said. And God wills for people to go to hell.
    But that is not the case. God allows it happen, or permits it to happen, but does not positivity will it.
    This is from St. Alphonsus de Liguori’s sermon on conformity to God’s Will, this should help you understand:
    “ 7. We should conform to the divine will, not only in misfortunes which come directly from God such as sickness, loss of property, privation of friends and relatives but also in crosses which come to us from men, but indirectly from God, such as acts of injustice, defamations, calumnies, injuries, and all other sorts of persecutions. But, you may ask, does God will that others commit sin, by injuring us in our property or in our reputation? No; God wills not their sin; but he wishes us to bear with such a loss and with such a humiliation; and he wishes us to conform, on all such occasions, to his divine will.  
    8. "Good things and evil... are from God." (Eccl. xi. 14.) All blessings such as riches and honours and all misfortunes such as sickness and persecutions come from God. But mark that the Scripture calls them evils, only because we, through the want of conformity to the will of God, regard them as evils and misfortunes. But, in reality, if we accepted them from the hands of God with Christian resignation, they should be blessings and not evils. The jewels which give the greatest splendour to the crown of the saints in heaven, are the tribulations which they bore with patience, as coming from the hands of the Lord. On hearing that the Sabeans had taken away all his oxen and asses, holy Job said: “The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away." (Job i. 21.) He did not say that the Lord gave, and that the Sabeans had taken away; but that the Lord gave, and that the Lord had taken away: and therefore he blessed the Lord, believing that all had happened through the divine will. “As it has pleased the Lord, so it is done: blessed be the name of the Lord." (Ibid.) Being tormented with iron hooks and burning torches, the holy martyrs Epictetus and Atone said: ”Lord, thy will be done in us." And their last words were: ”Be blessed, eternal God, for having given us the grace to accomplish thy will."  
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #33 on: December 11, 2019, 06:12:33 PM »
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  • If that is the case, the God wills different religions as Pope Francis said. And God wills for people to go to hell.
    But that is not the case. God allows it happen, or permits it to happen, but does not positivity will it.

    You're right of course.  God doesn't positively will everything that happens.  He wills the good and permits the evil, or positively wills the good, and wills to permit the evil.

    The quotation from St. Alphonsus means God positively wills for us to endure, not only the temporal misfortunes He sends, but also the effects of the moral evils he permits. But God never positively wills a moral evil itself, but he does will for us to confirm our will to His, by accepting what he wills to permit.

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #34 on: December 11, 2019, 06:18:51 PM »
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  • Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White

    I have a question. If you believe a Catholic should blindly follow a pope, in such a way that "if he says black is white," a true Catholic will unhesitatingly agree, what is your basis for rejecting the conciliar Popes?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #35 on: December 11, 2019, 06:26:16 PM »
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  • Fr. Peter Scott (SSPX) explains:

    "Are the Church’s disciplinary laws infallible?

    This theological question is an important one, and has not yet been adequately treated. Fr. Laisney spoke of it in the March 1997 issue of The Angelus (pp. 31-40) regarding the question of the New Mass, and the opinion (a priori) of those who say that it is infallible since it was "promulgated" by the pope, and that consequently it can contain no error or evil. This is manifestly false, just like the new Code of Canon Law (1983) and the new Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    This is the principle which both sedevacantists and conservatives use against the position of accepting everything Catholic which the pope legislates and refusing that which is not entirely Catholic. This position is but common sense.

    It is certainly true that, before Vatican II, pious theologians proposed that the pope’s infallibility should extend to his legislative acts. We know, however, that if such a thesis be accepted, that it does not and cannot include all his legislative acts, any more than his infallibility can include all his teaching acts.

    It is only indirectly that legislative acts teach dogma. It is certainly reasonable that a legislative act of the pope would in this way participate in the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. It could not, however, participate in the infallibility of the Extraordinary Magisterium, for there is not in a legislative act a formal definition of a dogma. It can, therefore, only participate in the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium.

    The conditions for the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium are that that which is taught, has been taught ubique, semper et ab omnibus; that is, always, everywhere and by all. I refer you to the essays on the infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium in Angelus Press’s book, Pope or Church?

    It could easily be considered that the promulgation of Quo Primum does just that, inasmuch as it is a formal codification of a rite of Mass which perfectly expresses the Catholic doctrine taught by the Council of Trent. However, there is no way that new or revolutionary legislation could participate in this infallibility, any more than could the dogmatic decrees of Vatican II participate in this infallibility, for they are not even a part of the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church when they teach novelties.

    Consequently, it comes down to examining the laws (such as the new Catechism of the Catholic Church) and seeing what is perfectly in conformity to what has always and everywhere been taught by all Catholics. Such laws express the infallibility of the Church, inasmuch as they express Catholic doctrine, even though they do not make a direct definition. Other laws either do not express Catholic doctrine, or express something contrary to it (e.g., ecuмenism), which means that for serious reasons of Faith we may and should question and refuse them.  

    [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]"

    Brief Commentary:
    It is precisely because the teachings of the magisterium must be universal in space (i.e., geographical), (morally) unanimously, and time, that sedevacantists reject this latter criteria of temporal universality, in order to make EVERYTHING part of the ordinary magisterium, and thereby conclude the conciliar and post-conciliar popes, having taught heresy, cannot have been popes).  In rejecting temporal universality, they reject the teaching of St. Vincent of Lerrins (Commonitorium), so esteemed in the Church, and arrive at their error.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #36 on: December 11, 2019, 06:30:54 PM »
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  • I have a question. If you believe a Catholic should blindly follow a pope, in such a way that "if he says black is white," a true Catholic will unhesitatingly agree, what is your basis for rejecting the conciliar Popes?
    Objectively, if the pope said black is white or that a banana is a fish and commanded you to believe it, he would be asking you to “sin” against reason and thus you should not obey. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #37 on: December 11, 2019, 06:53:37 PM »
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  • I have a question. If you believe a Catholic should blindly follow a pope, in such a way that "if he says black is white," a true Catholic will unhesitatingly agree, what is your basis for rejecting the conciliar Popes?
    I didn't say "a Catholic should blindly follow a pope". I posted St. Ignatius of Loyola saying:


    Quote
    St. Ignatius of Loyola's  Rules for Thinking with the Church

    First ruleRenouncing all self-judgment, we must be wholly willing to obey in all things the true Spouse of Jesus Christ Our Lord, which is our Hierarchical Holy Mother Church.”

    Ninth rule – Finally, to praise all precepts of the Church, always seeking reasons in their favor, and never in their disfavor.”

    Thirteenth rule – To always be on the side of truth, we must follow this norm: the white that I see is black, if the Holy Church so decides it, believing that between Christ Our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, his Bride, there is the same Spirit that governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. In fact, the same Divine Spirit who gave us the Ten Commandments also rules and governs our Holy Mother Church. “
    My basis for rejecting Vatican II and the Vat II popes is that I have serious doubt that they are popes and that it is the Catholic Church, as a matter of fact I lean towards the belief that it is a counterfeit false church and they are false popes. If they were real popes a Catholic could safely follow their every command, as St. Ignatius of Loyola states. I do not recognize the voice of the stranger.

    "But a stranger they follow not, but fly from him, because they know not the voice of strangers." (John 10:5)


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #38 on: December 11, 2019, 06:59:46 PM »
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  • Fr. Peter Scott (SSPX) explains:
    I asked you for saints quotes, not Fr. Scott's ideas.   

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #39 on: December 11, 2019, 07:02:10 PM »
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  • Lol...I gave you several examples, at which time you derailed your own thread, and started talking about papal infallibility.
    And two persons responded to your non-examples.
    No one is talking about papal infallibility.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #40 on: December 11, 2019, 08:46:20 PM »
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  • BTW Gallicanism actually means believing the King, and not the Pope, is head of the Church.  It doesn't mean believing papal epistemology is less than absolute.

    Honestly the real problem here is that Sedes don't believe these quotes either.  No sede would say black is white, and white is black, if the Pope said so.  Sedes just say that guy isn't really pope, lol.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #41 on: December 11, 2019, 10:41:24 PM »
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  • Can anyone say Gallicanism?
    Exactly.  Novus Ordo Watch tweet today: “Kwasniewski’s Gallican anti-Catholicism continues: “In many ways, we are more threatened today by the spirit of Vatican I, which it will take a mighty exorcism to drive away” - https://onepeterfive.com/council-far-spent/ As we keep saying: They would sooner dump the Papacy than Bergoglio!”

    So now the R&R is launching an attack against a true council and a dogmatic definition no less.  Only sedes remain as the staunch defenders of Catholic doctrine.

    Link: https://mobile.twitter.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1204829764596518912

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #42 on: December 11, 2019, 11:02:53 PM »
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  • I have a question. If you believe a Catholic should blindly follow a pope, in such a way that "if he says black is white," a true Catholic will unhesitatingly agree, what is your basis for rejecting the conciliar Popes?
    Because they are not Catholic popes?  If they were Catholic popes, we would recognize the voice of our Shepherd.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #43 on: December 12, 2019, 05:07:00 AM »
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  • I didn't say "a Catholic should blindly follow a pope". I posted St. Ignatius of Loyola saying:
    We should and are bound to 'blindly' follow only the Church, which is Christ. If you think something is of the faith ("white") but it's not (because the Church teaches that it's "black"), look to the Church and you will receive the truth that it's black. Once you know the truth, you must then reject your wrong idea of it being white, and accept the truth that it is black - because black is the teaching of Holy Mother the Church.

    That is what St. Ignatius is teaching. As such, he is saying it is better to learn or quote from teachings of the Church to settle certain issues regarding the faith than it is to quote from anyone else.

    He is not teaching to accept black is white if that's the will of the pope - popes cannot make black, white, anymore than popes can make wrong right either by willing it, preaching it or speaking it.



    My basis for rejecting Vatican II and the Vat II popes is that I have serious doubt that they are popes and that it is the Catholic Church, as a matter of fact I lean towards the belief that it is a counterfeit false church and they are false popes. If they were real popes a Catholic could safely follow their every command, as St. Ignatius of Loyola states. I do not recognize the voice of the stranger.
    St. Ignatius does not state that, and it is impossible to even get that out of what he says LT. You err against St. Ignatius by applying what he apodictically states, to as if he is talking about the pope - he is not talking about the pope. Do you think he could not say the word pope, or Roman Pontiff, or Holy See, or See of Peter, or etc.? He repeatedly names the Church, which is Christ.

    Accept reality - the pope is the pope and he preaches error to the whole world of his own free will, there is no divine intervention or power promised to him that prevents him from doing what he is doing. That is reality.

    Much confusion is eliminated when one believes their own eyes, when one believes reality. OTOH, rejecting reality is *always* the cause of much confusion - surely no one here can disagree with this truism.

    The only time the pope is prevented from preaching error is when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra - we are bound to believe *this*. *This* is the 'black' because *this* is what Holy Church imposed upon us when She decided this is 'black' at V1 and bound us to believe it.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #44 on: December 12, 2019, 07:54:20 AM »
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  • Exactly.  Novus Ordo Watch tweet today: “Kwasniewski’s Gallican anti-Catholicism continues: “In many ways, we are more threatened today by the spirit of Vatican I, which it will take a mighty exorcism to drive away” - https://onepeterfive.com/council-far-spent/ As we keep saying: They would sooner dump the Papacy than Bergoglio!”

    So now the R&R is launching an attack against a true council and a dogmatic definition no less.  Only sedes remain as the staunch defenders of Catholic doctrine.

    Link: https://mobile.twitter.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1204829764596518912
    “Spirit of Vatican I” doesn’t equal Vatican i.
    And yeah, it does make more sense to think that maybe the papacy is more limited than previously thought than to conclude that a pope isn’t a real pope every time he does something that shouldn’t be possible, quote and quote