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Author Topic: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White  (Read 9173 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
« on: December 10, 2019, 03:11:58 PM »
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  • St. Ignatius of Loyola's  Rules for Thinking with the Church

    First ruleRenouncing all self-judgment, we must be wholly willing to obey in all things the true Spouse of Jesus Christ Our Lord, which is our Hierarchical Holy Mother Church.”

    Ninth rule – Finally, to praise all precepts of the Church, always seeking reasons in their favor, and never in their disfavor.”

    Thirteenth rule – To always be on the side of truth, we must follow this norm: the white that I see is black, if the Holy Church so decides it, believing that between Christ Our Lord, the Bridegroom, and the Church, his Bride, there is the same Spirit that governs and directs us for the salvation of our souls. In fact, the same Divine Spirit who gave us the Ten Commandments also rules and governs our Holy Mother Church. “

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #1 on: December 10, 2019, 03:14:24 PM »
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  • Anyone can add other similar quotes from the saints to add to this one from St. Ignatius.



    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #2 on: December 10, 2019, 03:18:29 PM »
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  • Also I ask if anyone can post any instances where following St. Ignatius's rule concerning following the pope ever went wrong for the flock (before the Vatican II popes).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #3 on: December 10, 2019, 03:44:48 PM »
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  • St. Ignatius speaks of the Church deciding black is white, not the Popes deciding black is white.

    Obviously, as you know, he is just making the point regarding humility and obedience, if a bit hyperbolically.

    But he certainly cannot be taken to mean that a Pope can never command that which should be disobeyed.

    If he were, great moralists like St. Thomas Aquinas, Naz, Suarez, Alphonsus de Liguori, Grea, et al would have their writings on the doctrine of necessity condemned for supposing that which sedes say is impossible (i.e., the necessity of resisting an attacking Pope, whose commands are evil and/or harm the common good).

    With only a couple minutes reflection, I think I can list examples where following St. Ignatius' advice pre-council would have led Catholics astray, or where doing so would have been bad for the Church:

    -Assenting to the 1955 experimental rites of Holy Week would be one example.

    -Directing the cristeros to lay down their weapons would be another.

    -Suppressing the Sodalitium Pianum would be another.

    -Suppressing Action francaise.

    -Pius XII opening the door to historico-critical exegesis in Divino Afflante Spiritu.

    -John XXII's heretical teaching on the particular judgment.

    I could probably come up with another handful of examples.



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #4 on: December 10, 2019, 05:47:37 PM »
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  • St. Ignatius speaks of the Church deciding black is white, not the Popes deciding black is white. (Nothing is considered decided unless the pope approves it, so St. Ignatius is talking about the pope and the Church)

    Obviously, as you know, he is just making the point regarding humility and obedience, if a bit hyperbolically. ( see above, it is no hyperbole)

    But he certainly cannot be taken to mean that a Pope can never command that which should be disobeyed. ( one can question the pope, but one can't disobey, read rule #9)

    If he were, great moralists like St. Thomas Aquinas, Naz, Suarez, Alphonsus de Liguori, Grea, et al would have their writings on the doctrine of necessity condemned for supposing that which sedes say is impossible (i.e., the necessity of resisting an attacking Pope, whose commands are evil and/or harm the common good). (Post what they said, stick to saints only) 

    With only a couple minutes reflection, I think I can list examples where following St. Ignatius' advice pre-council would have led Catholics astray, or where doing so would have been bad for the Church: (none of them really had any effect on the Church, so we must look at them as #9 says "always seeking reasons in their favor, and never in their disfavor.as follows:

    -Assenting to the 1955 experimental rites of Holy Week would be one example. (No one would have even remembered the changes were it not for what followed after the VatII popes)

    -Directing the cristeros to lay down their weapons would be another. (Can you prove without a doubt that it was Pius XI that ordered it? Moreover, it may just be that God did not will it, as the best for the salvation of souls)

    -Suppressing the Sodalitium Pianum would be another. (That's you opinion)

    -Suppressing Action francaise.(that's your opinion)

    -Pius XII opening the door to historico-critical exegesis in Divino Afflante Spiritu. ( It exposed those that were hiding)

    -John XXII's heretical teaching on the particular judgment. ( that was only his private opinion in a private letter, no one heard of it, he did not teach it to the faithful)

    I could probably come up with another handful of examples.
    See above responses in red.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #5 on: December 10, 2019, 06:42:56 PM »
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  • St. Ignatius speaks of the Church deciding black is white, not the Popes deciding black is white.

    Obviously, as you know, he is just making the point regarding humility and obedience, if a bit hyperbolically.

    But he certainly cannot be taken to mean that a Pope can never command that which should be disobeyed.

    If he were, great moralists like St. Thomas Aquinas, Naz, Suarez, Alphonsus de Liguori, Grea, et al would have their writings on the doctrine of necessity condemned for supposing that which sedes say is impossible (i.e., the necessity of resisting an attacking Pope, whose commands are evil and/or harm the common good).

    With only a couple minutes reflection, I think I can list examples where following St. Ignatius' advice pre-council would have led Catholics astray, or where doing so would have been bad for the Church:

    -Assenting to the 1955 experimental rites of Holy Week would be one example.

    -Directing the cristeros to lay down their weapons would be another.

    -Suppressing the Sodalitium Pianum would be another.

    -Suppressing Action francaise.

    -Pius XII opening the door to historico-critical exegesis in Divino Afflante Spiritu.

    -John XXII's heretical teaching on the particular judgment.

    I could probably come up with another handful of examples.
    This is hardly what sedevacantists argue and you should know better.

    We argue that a pope must be obediently followed when he teaches the whole Church on faith and morals. Obviously he should be obeyed on all things that are not obviously sinful.

    “ Assenting to the 1955 experimental rites of Holy Week would be one example.”

    There is absolutely nothing immoral or evil with the 1955 Holy Week. True, I and other traditionalists don’t particularly much care for it, but it is still good and holy. I like to compare it to the Eastern Rites in the sense that I don’t find those rites very appealing either, but they are still good and holy. This order had to be obeyed whether someone in 1955 liked it or not. With that being said, I can understand how a traditional priest such as Father Cekada could appeal to epikeia.

    “ Directing the cristeros to lay down their weapons would be another.

    -Suppressing the Sodalitium Pianum would be another.

    -Suppressing Action francaise.

    -Pius XII opening the door to historico-critical exegesis in Divino Afflante Spiritu.“


    All of these things have nothing to do with the teaching of faith and morals, in retrospect, they seemed to be poor judgments, possibly due to poor counsel. The pope is not infallible in all of his judgments and decisions. In all of these cases he should have been obeyed, right or wrong, and he was.

    John XXII's heretical teaching on the particular judgment”

    Ridiculous! Pope John XXII’s was teaching as a private teacher and was teaching on a matter that was unsettled and thus was permitted to be held at the time. He certainly wasn’t exercising his Infallible Magisterium. Also, the subject wasn’t defined until 2 years after he died.





    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #6 on: December 10, 2019, 08:29:34 PM »
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  • Decrees of the First Vatican Council

    Council Fathers - 1868 A.D.
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм20.htm


    …Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received [47] .…

    And so,



    …Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that
    he is the supreme judge of the faithful [52] , and that
    in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment [53] .
    The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone,
    nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon [54] . …


    So, then,

    if anyone says that

    the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and

    not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this

    not only in matters of

    faith and morals, but also in those which concern the

    discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that

    he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that

    this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:

    let him be anathema.So, then,


    Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the apostolic see preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion [56] .…

    “The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” [58]…

    for they knew very well that this see of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Saviour to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren [60] .

    This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this see so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine. Thus the tendency to schism is removed and the whole church is preserved in unity, and, resting on its foundation, can stand firm against the gates of hell.
    But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #7 on: December 10, 2019, 08:37:53 PM »
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  • No idea why people are posting about papal infallibility (including the OP), when that was not the question the OP asked.

    But since the OP derailed his own thread (which implies he mistook St. Ignatius for teaching a pope can never err, or even crazier, that if a pope could err, we ought to follow him in his error), can someone quote the part of Pastor Aeternus for me which states the pope can never pass evil laws?

    All I ever see is sedes quoting that docuмent pertaining to his supreme jurisdiction, but never quite hitting upon a section which says he can never pass an evil law.

    But who disputes that he has supreme jurisdiction not only in faith or morals, but also in discipline?

    But that is not the same as saying he can never pass in evil law, or that he is infallible in matters of discipline.

    If such were the case, then it would be folly for the great writers to be explaining why even a pope must be resisted who gives an evil command (i.e., in their works on the doctrine of necessity).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #8 on: December 10, 2019, 08:47:04 PM »
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  • Pastor Aeternus offers no escape clauses for papal jurisdiction.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #9 on: December 10, 2019, 08:49:24 PM »
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  • All Im gonna say is sedes don't do this either.

    Sedes respond to "the Pope says black is white" with "what pope."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #10 on: December 10, 2019, 08:58:06 PM »
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  • Pastor Aeternus offers no escape clauses for papal jurisdiction.

    Once again: Who's questioning the pope's supreme juridsdiction?

    It seems to me that sedes conflate "supreme" with "unlimited" in order to come to the absurd conclusion that "if he is a pope, you must obey" (because in their minds, oweing to an exagerrated comprehension of infallibility -itself stemming from their conflation of "supreme" with "unlimited"- it is incomprehensible that a pope could issue an evil order or law).

    That is how one arrives at sedevacantism.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #11 on: December 10, 2019, 09:07:31 PM »
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  • What part of "this See of Peter always remains unblemished by any error" don't you understand?

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #12 on: December 10, 2019, 09:14:17 PM »
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  • “…it is to give proof of submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways. They resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.” Pope Leo XIII, Epistola Tua


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #13 on: December 10, 2019, 09:15:37 PM »
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  • “…it is to give proof of submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways. They resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.” Pope Leo XIII, Epistola Tua
    According to this, you are obliged to recognize the conciliar claimants as Popes.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #14 on: December 10, 2019, 09:18:08 PM »
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  • 22. Now, as the Apostle Paul urges, this unanimity ought to be perfect. Christian faith reposes not on human but on divine authority, for what God has revealed "we believe not on account of the intrinsic evidence of the truth perceived by the natural light of our reason, but on account of the authority of God revealing, who cannot be deceived nor Himself deceive."(24) It follows as a consequence that whatever things are manifestly revealed by God we must receive with a similar and equal assent. To refuse to believe any one of them is equivalent to rejecting them all, for those at once destroy the very groundwork of faith who deny that God has spoken to men, or who bring into doubt His infinite truth and wisdom. To determine, however, which are the doctrines divinely revealed belongs to the teaching Church, to whom God has entrusted the safekeeping and interpretation of His utterances. But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself. This obedience should, however, be perfect, because it is enjoined by faith itself, and has this in common with faith, that it cannot be given in shreds; nay, were it not absolute and perfect in every particular, it might wear the name of obedience, but its essence would disappear. Christian usage attaches such value to this perfection of obedience that it has been, and will ever be, accounted the distinguishing mark by which we are able to recognize Catholics. Admirably does the following passage from St. Thomas Aquinas set before us the right view: "The formal object of faith is primary truth, as it is shown forth in the holy Scriptures, and in the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the fountainhead of truth. It follows, therefore, that he who does not adhere, as to an infallible divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the primary truth manifested in the holy Scriptures, possesses not the habit of faith; but matters of faith he holds otherwise than true faith. Now, it is evident that he who clings to the doctrines of the Church as to an infallible rule yields his assent to everything the Church teaches; but otherwise, if with reference to what the Church teaches he holds what he likes but does not hold what he does not like, he adheres not to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will."(25)

    23. "The faith of the whole Church should be one, according to the precept (1 Cor. 1:10): "Let all speak the same thing, and let there be no schisms among you"; and this cannot be observed save on condition that questions which arise touching faith should be determined by him who presides over the whole Church, whose sentence must consequently be accepted without wavering. And hence to the sole authority of the supreme Pontiff does it pertain to publish a new revision of the symbol, as also to decree all other matters that concern the universal Church."(26)

    24. In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the Vatican Council declared are to be believed "with Catholic and divine faith."(27) But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the apostolic see. And how fitting it is that this should be so any one can easily perceive. For the things contained in the divine oracles have reference to God in part, and in part to man, and to whatever is necessary for the attainment of his eternal salvation. Now, both these, that is to say, what we are bound to believe and what we are obliged to do, are laid down, as we have stated, by the Church using her divine right, and in the Church by the supreme Pontiff. Wherefore it belongs to the Pope to judge authoritatively what things the sacred oracles contain, as well as what doctrines are in harmony, and what in disagreement, with them; and also, for the same reason, to show forth what things are to be accepted as right, and what to be rejected as worthless; what it is necessary to do and what to avoid doing, in order to attain eternal salvation. For, otherwise, there would be no sure interpreter of the commands of God, nor would there be any safe guide showing man the way he should live.

    Sapientiae Christianae, Pope Leo XIII