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Author Topic: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White  (Read 9185 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
« Reply #240 on: December 19, 2019, 10:02:37 AM »
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  • After all this time, you persist in clinging to this false interpretation of Vatican I's "new doctrine" passage.  Well, one cannot say that you did not choose your forum screen name appropriately.
    You'll never get it unless you drop the false idea, the "new doctrine", that teaches the pope is always infallibly safe to follow no matter what - which btw, you don't believe yourself.

    Your interpretation of what V1 said regarding "new doctrine" is honestly quite ridiculous for Catholics - I can see it for non-Catholics, or for Catholics in name only though. No one knows where you even came up with that idea.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #241 on: December 19, 2019, 06:04:31 PM »
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  • You guys are pathetic and desperate.  What we're talking about is whether something can be harmful to souls and to faith.  It is the teaching of the Church that her Universal Discipline cannot be harmful in this regard.  John XXII is saying that something backfired in practice that was deemed prudent by conjecture.  In other words, he had thought something a good idea, but it did not work out that way.  Something turned out to be unuseful.  I could establish a discipline, for instance, which says that priests had to say the Divine Office twice every day.  While not intrinsically harmful to souls, it could be imprudent and harmful in other ways.  This kind of harmful is not prevented by the Church's infallibility.  You're pathetic in attempting to liken this to the Church's promulgation of a non-Catholic liturgy in place of the Mass.  These two are not even close to be anywhere in the same ballpark.
    Lad, it was an honest question. Cool your jets, turbo. There was no "gotcha" behind it.
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #242 on: December 19, 2019, 07:10:55 PM »
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  • Lad, it was an honest question. Cool your jets, turbo. There was no "gotcha" behind it.

    In all of Church history you were able to dig up ONE example of a harmful Canon, but it was deemed harmful because of its practical consequences rather than as intrinsically deleterious to souls.

    This is not about any gotcha; it's about your non-Catholic position that an Ecuмenical Council and Mass could endanger souls.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #243 on: December 19, 2019, 10:25:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pax Vobis
    One is either schismatic or not.
    Correct. And per Pope Bl. Pius IX, who defined Papal Infallibility and Primacy of Jurisdiction, in Quartus Supra, "But the neo-schismatics say that it was not a case of doctrine but of discipline, so the name and prerogatives of Catholics cannot be denied to those who object. Our Constitution Reversurus, published on July 12, 1867,[23] answers this objection. We do not doubt that you know well how vain and worthless this evasion is. For the Catholic Church has always regarded as schismatic those who obstinately oppose the lawful prelates of the Church and in particular, the Chief Shepherd of all. Schismatics avoid carrying out their orders and even deny their very rank.Since the faction from Armenia is like this, they are schismatics even if they had not yet been condemned as such by Apostolic authority. For the Church consists of the people in union with the priest, and the flock following its shepherd.[24] Consequently the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and whoever is not with the bishop is not in the Church." https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quartu.htm

    Quote
    Hello. The above underlined is classic Recognize and Resist.
    Not in the sense the neo-schismatics mean it. Certainly, liberalism is to be refused e.g. a false liberal Vatican Ostpolitik with Chinese Communists today, that greatly endangers Chinese Catholics, and is not for the good of the Catholic Church. That can and should be refused. There are good Cardinals and Bishops who are doing that.

    It is a completely different matter to rashly break off complete communion with the Pope and the Bishops; for, those who withdraw from Catholic Communion, will gradually perceive all their works and prayers grow cold, because they do not share in the benefits and blessings of the Unity of the Catholic Church, as the Council of Florence teaches us: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also ... schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the Unity of the Catholic Church." We must examine our conscience in its light. If you don't believe me, that's up to you. But this is infallible Church Teaching.

    Quote
    I did not say that the SSPX are not considered to be Catholics
    Well, at least you acknowledge that. And that is enough to refute your absurd opinion, because any Catholic is allowed to belong to or support a Catholic Fraternity. But what you ought to do is confess the sin of sede-vacantism, or sede-doubtism, or sede-whateverism, and ask your Priest to be reconciled to the Catholic Church, with firm resolve not to fall back into it.  As Bp. Fellay mentioned, "As a result of the Pope’s act, during the Holy Year, we will have ordinary jurisdiction. In the image I mentioned, this has the effect of giving us the official insignia of firefighters, whereas such a status was denied us for decades." https://damselofthefaith.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/ordinary-jurisdiction-for-the-year-of-mercy-bishop-fellay-says/ the SSPX is not only Catholic but also Her Bishops have Ordinary Jurisdiction going ahead, so the objection is refuted. One ought to be subject to Catholic Bishops who have Ordinary Jurisdiction and it's perfectly Catholic to be such, sede-doubtist subjective absurdities aside.

    Here's Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam, "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff." There's no exception that says "if you personally believe he's not the Pope, then it's not necessary". And as Fr. Hunter says, if the Bishops are united in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the Body of the Bishops would be separated from their Head, and the divine constitution of the Church would be ruined. The Church defects. In other words, sede-ism denies the indefectibility of the Teaching Church. Read about Eastern Catholic Martyrs who died under Communist Terrorism to remain faithful to the Roman Catholic Church, and in no way break from Catholic Unity with Rome, the Mother Church, even though being much pressured and persecuted to do so; and you will see how foolish it is to risk your spiritual growth and jeopardize your salvation by living unlike Roman Catholics have always lived, i.e. more or less out of communion with Rome. Modern sede-ism practically denies the indefectibility of the Roman Church which Fr. Fenton also spoke of. Both SVism and "R&R" as commonly used are mistaken. The True Traditional Catholic position is refusing liberalism while remaining in communion with the Teaching Church, which is indefectible, and with the Roman Church, which is also indefectible.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #244 on: December 20, 2019, 07:22:59 AM »
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  • Quote
    if the Bishops are united in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right
    That's just an opinion. It is the clearest dogma of the Church that only Catholics are saved, yet you believe (and all the SSPX & Sede bishops teach) that a non-Catholic can belong to the "soul of the Church" and be saved. In the same way, can you see that a chosen pope can remove himself from being a pope, remove himself from the soul of the Church while appearing to be the pope?   Your belief in the salvation of a non-Catholic goes against many clear dogmas, while your opinion above has not one dogma to back it up, yet you believe thye opinion and deny the dogma? I see inconsistency there, likely because it is of no benefit to you to believe the sede position, it would only bring you hardship.

    ALL the bishops today were hand picked by the Vatican II popes, ALL of them. They were picked because they are with the program. They were picked because they are blackmailable and totally under control. That is why so many of them are ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs (sodomites). Today, the only bishops not handpicked are the 8 SSPX bishops and the few sede bishops.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #245 on: December 20, 2019, 07:41:49 AM »
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  • Well, at least you acknowledge that. And that is enough to refute your absurd opinion, ...

    Hardly.  Despite being considered Catholic, in one sense, by a Novus Ordo establishment that has already redefined the boundaries of the Church to include all the sincere, the fact remains that they are irregular and in a chronic state of disobedience to and separation from the hierarchy.

    In order to belong to such a group, you have to have a proportionately grave reason.  You have no such reason.  You have absolutely NO reason of conscience not to join FSSP.  It's merely one of personal preference, which doesn't suffice to join such a group.  Consequently, you are schismatic.

    What I'm saying is that it's not inherently incompatible with Catholicism to belong to the SSPX, but, subjectively speaking, you have to have sufficient reason to join the group.  So, for instance, if the faithful cannot find anywhere else to assist at Mass that isn't contaminated with Modernism, they can assist at SSPX chapels without any issue.  [In all this, I am assuming for the sake of argument that these authorities are legitimate.]  But it's one thing to assist at Mass there, and quite another to formally join the association without a compelling reason.

    You must have a PROPORTIONATE reason, a reason of conscience, to join with SSPX vs., say, the FSSP.  You have zero, none, nada, zilch.  Consequently, you are a schismatic.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #246 on: December 20, 2019, 02:06:50 PM »
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  • NOTE, I did not say that the SSPX are not considered to be Catholics, just that they are canonically irregular.  When your theology is no different than that of the FSSP, you have no justification whatsoever for going with an irregular group over the regular FSSP.  Consequently, you are a schismatic.  If I believed as you did, then I would not go anywhere near the SSPX until they were fully regularized.
    XavierSem is not schismatic but he is a hypocrite.  He is attempting to bind trads with pre-Vatican 2 principles and theology that no non-traditional member of the Conciliar Church gives any thought to.  All these Conciliar Church people are constantly rejecting the very same things (and even much worse) that XavierSem is accusing R&R and sede people of.  None of the Conciliar people are excommunicated or in schism.  They are all members of the Conciliar Church in good standing.  Some of the Conciliar prelates might not be happy with what these people are doing but they all remain in the Conciliar Church receiving Conciliar sacraments, etc.  And in the end they all get a funeral with white vestments and a eulogy putting them in heaven (Ted Kennedy, anyone?).  And this is the ordinary and universal magisterium of the Conciliar Church.  So XavierSem and Siscoe and Salza and many others are all hypocritically using traditional Catholic principles and theology only when it is convenient for them to browbeat traditionalists.  If they applied the same Catholic principles to the non-traditional Conciliar Church members, and if they did it loudly and publicly, they would quickly find themselves in danger of being excommunicated (or at least threatened) just like Bishop Williamson.  The only people who get excommunicated in the Conciliar Church are people who are too loud about their traditional Catholic beliefs.  XavierSem can take a hike.  Take the log out of your own eye.  If he actually applied traditional Catholic principles and theology to the members of the Conciliar Church, he would quickly realize it is a defected Church and therefore not the Catholic Church at all.  No unity (of faith or morals, anything goes), no holiness (sacraments that lead to universal irreverence), no catholicity (replaced by a multitude of "churches" and faith communities) and no apostolicity (no connection to the faith of the Apostles, neither in the liturgy nor in the sacraments save for baptism).  In the Conciliar Church you can be traditional if you so desire but it isn't necessary for Conciliar salvation and according to some, it could lead to "solemn nonsense" or "palagianism" or "rigidity" or "moral asceticism".

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #247 on: December 20, 2019, 02:42:01 PM »
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  • Xavier, you still never answered my question...This entire site's purpose and goal is contrary to yours.  There are plenty of other sites you can go to who agree with you.  Why are you here? 


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #248 on: December 31, 2019, 10:02:54 AM »
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  • From the book Pope St. Pius X, The Saint of Our Times by Rev. Marius McAuliffe, OFM, page 90:


    "He who thinks with the Pope thinks with Christ, is a sacred Catholic principle"


    (LT says- That quote was always true till Vatican II. Now it is more like: He who thinks with the Vatican II popes thinks with the Father of Lies.)


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #249 on: December 31, 2019, 04:35:23 PM »
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  • I choose to follow God.  

    I refuse to follow anyone evil...
    May God bless you and keep you