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Author Topic: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White  (Read 9177 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2019, 09:20:03 PM »
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  • According to this, you are obliged to recognize the conciliar claimants as Popes.
    Not at all. We are obliged to submit to the teachings of true Popes.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #16 on: December 10, 2019, 09:23:08 PM »
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  • 22. Now, as the Apostle Paul urges, this unanimity ought to be perfect. Christian faith reposes not on human but on divine authority, for what God has revealed "we believe not on account of the intrinsic evidence of the truth perceived by the natural light of our reason, but on account of the authority of God revealing, who cannot be deceived nor Himself deceive."(24) It follows as a consequence that whatever things are manifestly revealed by God we must receive with a similar and equal assent. To refuse to believe any one of them is equivalent to rejecting them all, for those at once destroy the very groundwork of faith who deny that God has spoken to men, or who bring into doubt His infinite truth and wisdom. To determine, however, which are the doctrines divinely revealed belongs to the teaching Church, to whom God has entrusted the safekeeping and interpretation of His utterances. But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself. This obedience should, however, be perfect, because it is enjoined by faith itself, and has this in common with faith, that it cannot be given in shreds; nay, were it not absolute and perfect in every particular, it might wear the name of obedience, but its essence would disappear. Christian usage attaches such value to this perfection of obedience that it has been, and will ever be, accounted the distinguishing mark by which we are able to recognize Catholics. Admirably does the following passage from St. Thomas Aquinas set before us the right view: "The formal object of faith is primary truth, as it is shown forth in the holy Scriptures, and in the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the fountainhead of truth. It follows, therefore, that he who does not adhere, as to an infallible divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the primary truth manifested in the holy Scriptures, possesses not the habit of faith; but matters of faith he holds otherwise than true faith. Now, it is evident that he who clings to the doctrines of the Church as to an infallible rule yields his assent to everything the Church teaches; but otherwise, if with reference to what the Church teaches he holds what he likes but does not hold what he does not like, he adheres not to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will."(25)

    23. "The faith of the whole Church should be one, according to the precept (1 Cor. 1:10): "Let all speak the same thing, and let there be no schisms among you"; and this cannot be observed save on condition that questions which arise touching faith should be determined by him who presides over the whole Church, whose sentence must consequently be accepted without wavering. And hence to the sole authority of the supreme Pontiff does it pertain to publish a new revision of the symbol, as also to decree all other matters that concern the universal Church."(26)

    24. In defining the limits of the obedience owed to the pastors of souls, but most of all to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, it must not be supposed that it is only to be yielded in relation to dogmas of which the obstinate denial cannot be disjoined from the crime of heresy. Nay, further, it is not enough sincerely and firmly to assent to doctrines which, though not defined by any solemn pronouncement of the Church, are by her proposed to belief, as divinely revealed, in her common and universal teaching, and which the Vatican Council declared are to be believed "with Catholic and divine faith."(27) But this likewise must be reckoned amongst the duties of Christians, that they allow themselves to be ruled and directed by the authority and leadership of bishops, and, above all, of the apostolic see. And how fitting it is that this should be so any one can easily perceive. For the things contained in the divine oracles have reference to God in part, and in part to man, and to whatever is necessary for the attainment of his eternal salvation. Now, both these, that is to say, what we are bound to believe and what we are obliged to do, are laid down, as we have stated, by the Church using her divine right, and in the Church by the supreme Pontiff. Wherefore it belongs to the Pope to judge authoritatively what things the sacred oracles contain, as well as what doctrines are in harmony, and what in disagreement, with them; and also, for the same reason, to show forth what things are to be accepted as right, and what to be rejected as worthless; what it is necessary to do and what to avoid doing, in order to attain eternal salvation. For, otherwise, there would be no sure interpreter of the commands of God, nor would there be any safe guide showing man the way he should live.

    Sapientiae Christianae, Pope Leo XIII

    Yes?  And?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #17 on: December 10, 2019, 09:24:00 PM »
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  • Not at all. We are obliged to submit to the teachings of true Popes.
    On what authority do you declare which popes are true popes?

    You have only the ability to accept and reject, but none to declare truth or imposture.

    Consequently, you can only be schismatic or Catholic, as you prefer.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #18 on: December 11, 2019, 05:47:47 AM »
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  • See above responses in red.
    I agree with Sean here. The pope is not the Church. We owe our obedience to the Church, which is Christ, and we owe our obedience to the legitimate laws and teachings of Her pope, hierarchy and representatives - including our own [Catholic] parents and [Catholic] superiors.

    We know by adhering to those legitimate laws and teachings and by *that* obedience, that all the things we are witnessing within the Church today is black because Holy Church decided it was black in everything She handed down to us prior to V2, and will continue to hand down to us until the end of time so that every human creature is granted by God the same opportunity that we have, namely, to save their souls right up till the very end of the world. 

    However, the NOers believe the OP to mean the pope and follow him with blind obedience. The sedes believe the OP to mean the pope, yet they reject him as pope. Both are wrong, and even though St. Ignatius never says this, this is what they have been led to believe - that the Church teaches we owe blind obedience to the pope. 




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #19 on: December 11, 2019, 06:15:01 AM »
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  • Not at all. We are obliged to submit to the teachings of true Popes.
    We are obliged to submit to all legitimate teachings taught by the pope concerning us.

    Much confusion, which leads to false, even wild ideas, is the result of the belief that popes are incapable, even divinely protected from teaching illegitimate teachings.    
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #20 on: December 11, 2019, 07:16:31 AM »
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  • The Pope isn’t God.  
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #21 on: December 11, 2019, 01:33:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    Sean Johnson wrote: If he were, great moralists like St. Thomas Aquinas, Naz, Suarez, Alphonsus de Liguori, Grea, et al would have their writings on the doctrine of necessity condemned for supposing that which sedes say is impossible (i.e., the necessity of resisting an attacking Pope, whose commands are evil and/or harm the common good).



    Quote
    Last Tradhican responded - Post what they said, stick to saints only.

    I never received a response with the quotes from saints. 

    Moreover, curiously, it appears that those moralists never knew any evil or harmful commands from popes, for they are talking hypothetically.  In the entire history of the Church there has never been a "harmful and or evil command that would do harm to the common good" till after John XXIII, and then there are hundreds.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #22 on: December 11, 2019, 01:39:55 PM »
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  • Anyone can add other similar quotes from the saints to add to this one from St. Ignatius.
    Thank you Mark 79 for adding 11 more quotes to my 3. Everyone is welcomed to add more quotes.  


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #23 on: December 11, 2019, 01:51:25 PM »
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  • In the entire history of the Church there has never been a "harmful and or evil command that would do harm to the common good" till after John XXIII, and then there are hundreds.
    Lol...I gave you several examples, at which time you derailed your own thread, and started talking about papal infallibility.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #24 on: December 11, 2019, 02:05:03 PM »
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  • Can anyone say Gallicanism?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #25 on: December 11, 2019, 02:07:04 PM »
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  • I never received a response with the quotes from saints.

    Here's one:

    Bellarmine: "even if the Church could not depose a Pope, still, it may and must beg the Lord that he would apply the remedy, and it is certain that God has care of its safety, and that he would either convert the Pope or abolish him from the midst before he destroys the Church.  Nevertheless, it does not follow from here that it is not lawful to resist a Pope destroying the Church; for it is lawful to admonish him while preserving all reverence, and to modestly correct him, or even oppose him with force and arms if he meant to destroy the Church.  For to resist and repel by force of arms, not authority is required." (St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church, and advocate of the Recognize and Resist position, On the Authority of Councils, book II, chapter XIX).


    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #26 on: December 11, 2019, 02:07:43 PM »
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  • Can anyone say Gallicanism?

    Can anyone define Gallicanism?

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #27 on: December 11, 2019, 02:19:00 PM »
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  • See above responses in red.
    It appears that God willed for the Cristeros to win, but His permissive will allowed for the Pope to use his poor judgment and listen to the advice of his liberal Americanist Cardinals thus resulting in the murder of hundreds of Catholics all the way up to the early 1950's. So, in this case, the Pope should have been disobeyed until the true story of the situation could have been explained. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #28 on: December 11, 2019, 02:48:09 PM »
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  • I don't understand this whole thread. St. Ignatius never says anything about obeying the pope as the title of this thread says, so what is the idea that this thread is talking about? Making the pope "the Church"? Is that it?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Must Obey Pope Even if He Says Black is White
    « Reply #29 on: December 11, 2019, 05:02:18 PM »
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  • It appears that God willed for the Cristeros to win, but His permissive will allowed for the Pope to use his poor judgment and listen to the advice of his liberal Americanist Cardinals thus resulting in the murder of hundreds of Catholics all the way up to the early 1950's. So, in this case, the Pope should have been disobeyed until the true story of the situation could have been explained.
    No, God did not will that the Cristeros win. That’s why they lost. Everything that happens in the world, good or bad, is God’s will. This is some of the most fundamental Catholic teaching.  
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?