Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: stevusmagnus on July 16, 2009, 03:52:40 PM
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I recently attended a weekday Motu Mass since I had missed my Chapel's Mass for the day.
A nun in secular garb (black blazer with no habit or veil) was in attendance. She sat through at least one part where we should kneel. She then knelt at the altar rail but put her hands out and received Holy Communion in the hand.
A majority of the women were unveiled and in pants. One woman apparently in her 40's was wearing a skirt, but it only came down to mid thigh. Another gentleman with white hair was wearing shorts and sandals!
The Novus Ordo table, which was on wheels, was left in the sanctuary the whole time. And after Mass (a low Mass) the prayers requested by Pope Leo XIII were ignored and not said. I suppose Russia is already converted, right? Or so the NO tells us.
I did note one poor mom and daughter wearing long skirts and veiled, God bless them.
After Mass some woman in pants and a veil was walking through the sanctuary.
Then I took a look next to me as the Missalette from the NO was lying there. There was some blob of mixed colors on the front. It looked as if Toucan Sam had vomited his fruit loops. It apparently represented the ugliness and confusion of the modern liturgical printers.
I came out of there with a heavy heart for our Church and the poor souls inside it with absolutely no strong leadership, grounded in the Truth, to lead and challenge them in the right direction. What I saw was the Old Rite shoved into a context of people who are ideologically in another universe than what it stands for, but who have no idea this is the case.
I saw the white haired man in shorts and sandals kneeling at a side altar lighting a candle to Our Lady. The scene was poignant. the mix of true Catholicism dressed in the trappings of the modern world.
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Im surpirsed you could sit through it.
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Well, it's never just been an issue of only the mass.
If one lacks reverence and correct theology, there will be abuses, even if they aren't built into the liturgy itself.
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Tele,
That's my point. In NO-land there is cluelessness and sloppiness uncorrected and fostered for decades.
Then we throw our pearl of great price before these people and they often abuse the heck out of it.
How do we get these people to act properly and fully understand the TLM when they are allowed to stick to their NO and worldly practices in every other regard?
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Tele,
That's my point. In NO-land there is cluelessness and sloppiness uncorrected and fostered for decades.
Then we throw our pearl of great price before these people and they often abuse the heck out of it.
How do we get these people to act properly and fully understand the TLM when they are allowed to stick to their NO and worldly practices in every other regard?
Priests have to be converted.
Unfortunately, their bishops will tie their hands.
So bishops need to be converted.
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Do you see any Bishops being converted, save a miraculous intervention from God or a horrible chastisement?
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Stevus,
I think the horrbile chastisment is the only way it will occur ans what we deserve.
Andrew
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I think there are some things that we need to take into consideration when we attend a mass like this one.
Is this a priest that originally came from the Novus Ordo and doesnt have the desire to do the mass? Maybe he truly just does not know better. Did you ask the priest why he left it out? Did you express why to you it is important to say all of the mass and prayers afterward? If you did these things, then the bishop should know so they can get a priest who will do the mass the way it should respectfully be done. That is the bishops job.
People who normally attend the Novus Ordo do dress inappropriately and do not cover their heads. It has been my experience that slowly change comes for the better over time. Not over night. Especially if this mass has been going on for a short time. Remember, for most Catholics, this is a culture shock to them.
Trust and pray that by doing this mass, that God will give this priest graces he needs to perform this mass properly and so his clergy does realize that this mass holds higher standards.
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Do you see any Bishops being converted, save a miraculous intervention from God or a horrible chastisement?
Well, a few have been.
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This priest has been saying the TLM for a long time and the TLM has been in this parish for quite some time. Sadly, with no correction from the top I just don't see the situation changing. It's too entrenched.
There are worse examples in other places. The problem comes in putting the TLM in Novus Ordo parishes. There should be more of an effort to create diocesan Latin Mass parishes and give them dispensations from the typical NO BS such as communion in the hand, etc.
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By the way Credo, good to see you have joined a decent forum. ;)
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At the Mass I attend about have of the Women have head covers and dress appropriately. I have only seen a couple of men in jeans or shorts though. I am happy to say there are no alter girls and communion is always given in the mouth. But since the parish also uses the Novus Ordo there are no alter rails and we have to have Mass at 3:00 pm so very few attend. The biggest problem is the diocese controls us and can limit us in whatever way they like. And prominent Catholics in our area refuse to fund or advertise it and thus almost know one can know about it save through word of mouth.
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I used to attend FSSP mass and they were very strict there -- all the women were veiled, the men all wore suits, and there was silence before and during the Mass. The only sound was the penitents in the back shuffling around as they went into the confessional. It is a pity, since they are schismatic....
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This was the church:
http://sacfssp.com/default.aspx
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I did note one poor mom and daughter wearing long skirts and veiled, God bless them.
No He does not. And He never will unless they convert to the Catholic Faith and reject their pernicious sect.
We are going through a chastisement right now, in that the world at large believes Freemason heretics and apostates to be the Catholic hierarchy, and almost as many souls go to hell each day as people die.
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almost as many souls go to hell each day as people die.
That is true in every age, Catholic Martyr. We can at least pray for them.
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Just to set the record straight, stevus is referring to a Tridentine Mass which has been offered for twenty years by a brave and inspiring clergyman named Msgr. James Golasinski. He has, through his efforts in the pro-life movement, for which he is duly known as one of the leading figures in the Houston area, caused the closure of at least two abortion clinics that I know of. He also caused the closing of several bars and beer barns in the vicinity of his church, no small feat considering that his church is located across the street from the Astros' ball park. He was lambasted as expected in the newspaper and on radio for both the above actions.
The Monsignor is no Johnny-come-lately to the TLM. He is seventy-five years old and began saying the Latin Mass again in the 80's at a time when it was even more taboo than it is today, and has introduced countless faithful to its wonders. His preaching is perfectly traditional in every way. Many have been introduced to the early Church Fathers and have been fortified against heresies and modernism by his erudite sermons.
In spite of his advanced age, he still leads rosary processions to abortion clinics. Most recently, he headed a procession to a local convention center where Hillary Clinton was giving a talk which included references to "women's reproductive health rights."
The Leonine prayers after the Low Mass are often not said at many parishes for a diversity of reasons. Their inclusion or lack thereof does not indicate anything about the validity of the Mass or orthodoxy of the celebrant.
The Mass stevus refers to was a noonday one. The church is downtown, so many times people who simply happen to be in that area drop in there for Mass during the day. These people do not represent the typical churchgoer at that parish. Many never return when they realize the mid-day Mass is in Latin and others, when they do return, dress more appropriately. I used to assist at the Sunday TLM there for three years and I rarely saw anyone at the Sunday Mass not correctly attired.
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What exactly is the purpose of these threads whose only intent seems to be to tear someone or something else down? Does it stem from a self-gratifying impulse to say, "Look how Trad Cath I am! I'm so Trad no Mass is good enough for me. I can spot liberal influence anywhere, that's what a clever and Godly fellow I am!" And then go running off to a computer to tell everyone about it and doubtlessly impress them with what a REEEAAALLL Catholic you are.
Charity consists in actually leading a fellow sinner to the True Faith, not constantly insulting and berating everybody who doesn't meet your standards of approval. I've seen several times on these forums where a new member was quickly driven away by the obsessively critical attitudes of some posters. Who knows if that new member might have been driven away from Tradition altogether?
Most of us have been to abusive Novus Ordo Masses. We know what they're like. There's no reason to rehash the same old tired arguments against them, and it's downright despicable to do it against the Mass of a good Catholic priest with a record of achievement I doubt any of us could hold a candle to.
"Motu Mess." :really-mad2: Even the title of this thread drips with impudence and disrespect.
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Wait a sec. You called Father Golasinski a Catholic. He is subject to a notoriously heretical antipope. His ignorance of the numerous unremitting heresies of Benedict XVI is no more invincible than yours or mine. If he's so savvy against heresies, then why doesn't he anathematize the non-Catholic heretic he is subject to?
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St. Jude, I'm sorry the recounting of an experience at a Motu Mass drove you to such outrage and anger.
Notice the title has a question mark by it, meant to spark discussion. It is not a statement.
I felt nothing but sympathy for these people, not condemnation. Not once did I call down judgment on any of them. I simply intended to share my experience and some of the problems I saw and wanted to get others opinions on them. To discuss if they are endemic to the Motu Mass, where they come from, and what to do about them. PLEASE do not publicly try to divine my intentions and motivations in posting the thread and then react to them.
I must say I am quite taken aback at the hostility from some who are absolutely indignant that I have pointed out anything less than orthodox at a Motu Mass. It is truly as if I hit a nerve.
Nevertheless please do not assume you know what parish or priest I am referring to. I withheld the name of the parish and the priest intentionally because my purpose was not to malign any individual priest or parish but simply to point out my observations at a Motu Mass, period.
Your observations and lauding of the Msgr. Golinski you mentioned are all very good. More power to him. But please do not assume my post had anything to do with attempting to target him or anyone else in any way. I refuse to divulge where this parish is or who the priest was because that is not important.
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What exactly is the purpose of these threads whose only intent seems to be to tear someone or something else down? Does it stem from a self-gratifying impulse to say, "Look how Trad Cath I am! I'm so Trad no Mass is good enough for me. I can spot liberal influence anywhere, that's what a clever and Godly fellow I am!"
No, that's not what it's about at all.
It's about problems that people are going to encounter if they go to motu proprio masses.
The Motu Proprio is a wonderful thing, but we can't pretend that just changing the missal is going to correct the problems in a diocesan Catholic parish.
It's a good thing to know what's going on out there, so we can recognize how the efforts at restoration are going.
It's important to keep the pressure on.
Like I said, bishops can tie the hands of good priests, so they have to allow communion in the hand, and cannot require veiling, or a certain dress standard.
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My AQ Motu Mass thread was locked by et cuм apparently.
Would love to dissect the discussion here to add to this one.
I must say I'm completely floored by the outright anger and condemnations hurled my way from multiple sources.
It's amazing how posters will come out of the woodwork to defend secular nuns who receive in the hand, women in short skirts at Mass, and men in shorts at Mass who they have never met nor talked to.
Yet they will miss no opportunity to publicly judge, castigate, admonish, lecture, and accuse those who point these things out of every sort of sin, fault, impure intention, and wrongdoing.
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Important point to note here:
Nevertheless please do not assume you know what parish or priest I am referring to. I withheld the name of the parish and the priest intentionally because my purpose was not to malign any individual priest or parish but simply to point out my observations at a Motu Mass, period.
Stevus INTENTIONALLY left out the name of the parish and priest, because it's not about condemnations or personalities -- it's about facts and the TRUTH.
Good move on his part. It proves he's concerned about ideas and principles, and not specific individuals.
I'm the same way.
Matthew
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Just to set the record straight, stevus is referring to a Tridentine Mass which has been offered for twenty years by a brave and inspiring clergyman named Msgr. James Golasinski. He has, through his efforts in the pro-life movement, for which he is duly known as one of the leading figures in the Houston area
Please note that Stevus is NOT maligning this priest -- in fact, he didn't even mention names! How can you slander a good priest when you are talking about principles and ideas, leaving out any names or locations?
Give me a break!
Matthew
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Thanks Chant.
You are exactly right, of course.
I am consistently floored at the absolute absence of logical thought on the internet even amongst Trad boards.
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Shorts are, of course, unacceptable at Holy Mass. The question is whether we ignore the guy in shorts in front of us under the appearances of "being too Holy to notice" or whether we try to discuss and attack the problem. And the problem is much bigger than the guy just wearing shorts. It goes to the core of his worldview and theological beliefs. Shorts, or short skirts, or communion in the hand, is just a symptom of a larger disease.
I'm beginning to think the order of the pre-conditions should have been reversed. The TLM is being opened up to a people not conditioned to receive it. They are a people steeped in liberal VCII theology and ecclesiology who simply see and are told to see the TLM as just another form equal to the NO Mass. The result is, in many cases, the butchering and destruction of the TLM.
The VCII populous must be converted doctrinally first and then they would be able to realize the true value and import of the TLM. As it is they are simply using it as just another liturgical toy to be played with. So we now have sacrilege (communion in the hand) at the TLM as well as constant actions of the uninformed laity contributing to a lack of Catholic sense at these Masses.
Indeed the TLM is simply the most perfect representation of Catholic belief as expressed in the liturgy, but the whole thing is the pinnacle of a mountain based on the Faith. Without the faith, the TLM itself is sure to fail.
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I did note one poor mom and daughter wearing long skirts and veiled, God bless them.
No He does not. And He never will unless they convert to the Catholic Faith and reject their pernicious sect.
We are going through a chastisement right now, in that the world at large believes Freemason heretics and apostates to be the Catholic hierarchy, and almost as many souls go to hell each day as people die.
Where do you attend mass(Which group)?
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Both threads on the Motu Mass were shut down a AQ due to the fracas caused by certain posters expressing repeated indignant outrage that I pointed out shorts, short skirts, and communion in the hand should not be allowed at the TLM.
I have to say I'm still taken aback at the reaction to basic Catholic common sense by a few posters.
Still I must say there were several who "got it" and who were just as surprised as I was to witness the witchhunt mentality that started to emerge from what I can only categorize as "the left".
Certain posters just refused to engage in discussion as to how to prevent these abuses and their causes. Instead outrage was expressed that 1.) I noticed said abuses and 2.) that I would dare mention them on the web (even anonymously). By doing so I was somehow "judging" the anonymous people in the anonymous example I gave. I was also, incredibly, lectured to not be looking around at others at Mass and that I would have to follow around each anonymous person individually for years to be able to make a judgment as to whether their wearing shorts to mass was wrong! :laugh1:
Sorry, I can't help but laugh. I don't know what else to say.
Other more sane posters did have excellent contributions though, I must say. Our own Telemaque included.
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Here was my final thought I never had the chance to post:
The "judging" and "ignoring" arguments are clever tools used to attack the messenger and focus the debate on his intentions rather than the behavior in question. Certain people would rather discuss anything than the one thing that makes them feel uncomfortable because it pricks their conscience.
Indeed if they admit there are standards of dress for Mass they must ask themselves if they are living up to them. If they are not then it is much easier to give the shorts wearing a pass. Because if it's ok for some other guy to wear shorts to Mass, then it's ok for them to at least bend the rules themselves.
It reminds me of political liberals who scream bloody murder when a conservative talks about moral standards. Is their reaction to engage in debate with the conservative over what it right or wrong? Hardly. Their reaction is to try to personally destroy the conservative so he will just shut up because he threatens their "good feelings" about themselves. So the liberal machine crucifies the conservative personally and thus effectively avoids the debate entirely.
It's very effective in the secular press, but true Traditionalists see through it. One can say whatever irrelevance they want however indignantly or sarcastic they want to. However, at the end of the day, the question remains. Is the behavior right or wrong and if it is wrong, how do we most effectively stop it?
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Both threads on the Motu Mass were shut down a AQ due to the fracas caused by certain posters expressing repeated indignant outrage that I pointed out shorts, short skirts, and communion in the hand should not be allowed at the TLM.
I have to say I'm still taken aback at the reaction to basic Catholic common sense by a few posters.
Still I must say there were several who "got it" and who were just as surprised as I was to witness the witchhunt mentality that started to emerge from what I can only categorize as "the left".
Certain posters just refused to engage in discussion as to how to prevent these abuses and their causes. Instead outrage was expressed that 1.) I noticed said abuses and 2.) that I would dare mention them on the web (even anonymously). By doing so I was somehow "judging" the anonymous people in the anonymous example I gave. I was also, incredibly, lectured to not be looking around at others at Mass and that I would have to follow around each anonymous person individually for years to be able to make a judgment as to whether their wearing shorts to mass was wrong! :laugh1:
Sorry, I can't help but laugh. I don't know what else to say.
Other more sane posters did have excellent contributions though, I must say. Our own Telemaque included.
It amazes me how many so called Trads will defend communion in the hand but they are sure swift to jump the gun on anyone that gets too 'narrow-minded'.
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This priest has been saying the TLM for a long time and the TLM has been in this parish for quite some time. Sadly, with no correction from the top I just don't see the situation changing. It's too entrenched.
There are worse examples in other places. The problem comes in putting the TLM in Novus Ordo parishes. There should be more of an effort to create diocesan Latin Mass parishes and give them dispensations from the typical NO BS such as communion in the hand, etc.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accuмulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths" (2 Tim. 4:3-4).
There is something we can do that most people and maybe even priests who attend the novus ordo have forgotten. We pray harder, we fast longer, we say our rosary, and we offer up our daily sufferings. With these tools God has given us all things are possible.
I moved to a place where the Tridentine Mass was pretty much nonexistent. I would have to drive 2.5 hours if I was going to attend a Tridentine Mass. I did all of the above because I was truly afraid for my families soul. Just when I was ready to give up, we were receiving a new priest. He came in and announced a dress code. When one came dressed inappropriate father kindly asked them to wear an alb. He asked the women to start a club where they made mantillas. And because the women of the parish made them and sold them for the parish... women started wearing them. He gave homilies on modesty and spoke of Hell. He put up a crucifix, where once a Resurrected Jesus hung and the Tabernacle was placed back in the center. Within a few months we had a Tridentine Mass!!! and Confession before every mass.
We also have an obligation, if need be, to go over the bishop's head if they are not acting in accordance of the pope. The pope was very specific with his instructions with how he wanted the Tridentine Mass said. It sounds as if your bishop is not respecting the pope with his wishes.
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Credo, I was told recently that the communion in the hand indult applies to the TLM and therefore priests in the NO must give communion in the hand to those who present themselves in this manner at a TLM. Is this correct?
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Other more sane posters did have excellent contributions though, I must say. Our own Telemaque included.
Thanks Stevus.
You know, I really don't get it. But I think we're seeing just how damaging it is to common sense to remain in the typical diocesan Parish.
Fish Eaters is a separate story than Angelqueen.org. It really is beyond the pale, when someone is downrated 60 points for defending the injunction of St. Paul that wives should obey their husbands, and only a very few step up to agree with me.
I suppose it's beating a dead horse, but it never ceases to amaze me sometimes just how far the typical Catholic has moved away from Traditional teachings. Why think of themselves as Trads if they constantly have their knives out for anyone who restates the view that would have been accepted by any typical believing Catholic through the centuries?
Then they cover their own illogic and refusal to accept even the simplest premises (a wife should make a meal for her husband if he asks, shorts are not appropriate for mass) by resorting to suggestions that the person pointing those issues should be examining their own conscience.
No, some of these "Trads" are no different in spirit than the typical NO crowd.
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I really, really, really cannot accept that people who think taking Holy Communion in the hand is OK believe that is Our Lord.
The priest who hands gives Communion in the hand? I am sorry, I just don't see how he can possibly justify this in his head. Did he have a true vocation in the first place? What do they teach these guys in the NO seminaries about this practice, does anyone know?
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It's interesting that several people commented that they felt as if they were on CAF. It's as if some of those on AQ are buying the neo-modernist, neo-Protestant, "come as you are" mentality. Do some of them not have children? If they wouldn't raise your children with NO abuses then why are TLM abuses ok? Children when they are young will pick up on these things.
I really do think that the MP has had an effect on the mindset of Trads. Some seem to think that all is good, especially the newcomers. The problem overall with the MP is that it puts the cart before the horse-the mass before the faith. Too many of them are kidding themselves if they think that authentic tradition is growing.
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I agree with a lot of what Stevus has said. I read through a lot of the posts on the AngelQueen thread that was closed. I was surprised by what some of the more liberal posters were saying.
However, I do have one suggestion for Stevus. I think you should focus on the liturgical abuses in the Mass, rather than the clothing. Although I agree that shorts are never appropriate for Holy Mass, I think there are more important issues.
I'll tell my story about the local Traditional Latin Mass; all the people and places shall remain anonymous:
In my diocese, the choir sits in the pews while an electronic keyboard is played. The man who does this is apparently too old to climb the stairs to play the real pipe organ in the choir loft. He plays it so that it sounds like strings you'd hear in a movie. It's highly inappropriate, as the only instrument allowed by Holy Mother Church is the pipe organ. I've asked them to do something about, but to no avail.
So there are liturgical abuses in diocesan TLMs. They are not accidental, they are done on purpose.
And that's what I think we should focus on, because those are the most pressing issues, rather than focusing on clothing so much. Just my two cents.
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That is the "cardinal sin" of the Indult, and why I would never attend it no matter how reverent or beautiful the liturgy was.
What is that "cardinal sin"? Namely: believing that there is no Crisis in the Church; that it's simply about the Liturgy (the Mass) -- whereas the problem is actually the Catholic Faith itself being lost.
Yes, the Mass is a huge part of the Crisis, but only because the Mass is so central to the Faith. But it's the FAITH at stake in this Crisis in the Church. It's about Catholic dogma, identity, culture, the Priesthood, and relations with the modern world.
Matthew
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That is the "cardinal sin" of the Indult, and why I would never attend it no matter how reverent or beautiful the liturgy was.
What is that "cardinal sin"? Namely: believing that there is no Crisis in the Church; that it's simply about the Liturgy (the Mass) -- whereas the problem is actually the Catholic Faith itself being lost.
Yes, the Mass is a huge part of the Crisis, but only because the Mass is so central to the Faith. But it's the FAITH at stake in this Crisis in the Church. It's about Catholic dogma, identity, culture, the Priesthood, and relations with the modern world.
Matthew
That is right. The problem with my Motu mass is not so much the liturgy which is beautiful and reverent, but the fact that the Mass is reduced to personal preferences and the crisis is downplayed or ignored altogether.
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Important point to note here:
Stevus INTENTIONALLY left out the name of the parish and priest, because it's not about condemnations or personalities -- it's about facts and the TRUTH.
Good move on his part. It proves he's concerned about ideas and principles, and not specific individuals.
I'm the same way.
Matthew
How truly admirable! Wow, I'm really impressed with your newfound integrity.
Too bad you didn't have it just a few days ago when you were 100% behind another loudmouth poster when he was naming names of some clergymen up in Cleveland and accusing them of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, child molestation, embezzelment, and breaking the confessional seal.
Hypocrite!
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My AQ Motu Mass thread was locked by et cuм apparently.
Would love to dissect the discussion here to add to this one.
I must say I'm completely floored by the outright anger and condemnations hurled my way from multiple sources.
It's amazing how posters will come out of the woodwork to defend secular nuns who receive in the hand, women in short skirts at Mass, and men in shorts at Mass who they have never met nor talked to.
Typical lawlerly misdirection. My post was about little pissant Pharisees who have never posted anything but self-serving rants about how ever so superior they are to everyone else. I've never seen anything from you but your "analysis" of what's wrong with every Mass, every priest, or every other poster you've ever encountered.
Yet they will miss no opportunity to publicly judge, castigate, admonish, lecture, and accuse those who point these things out of every sort of sin, fault, impure intention, and wrongdoing.
I was wrong! You do have the capacity for self-reflection! I couldn't have described you better myself!
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Gladius_veritatis is not Stevus_Magnus.
Why are you confusing the two cases, which are completely separate, and completely different?
At any rate, even in the case of Gladius (who DID name names), he is only interested in the general welfare -- that nothing untoward will happen to any parishioners in the future. He's merely trying to get the word out. He also wills the conversion of the priests involved -- I see a Catholic spirit there. I don't see a problem with that.
Matthew
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Important point to note here:
Stevus INTENTIONALLY left out the name of the parish and priest, because it's not about condemnations or personalities -- it's about facts and the TRUTH.
Good move on his part. It proves he's concerned about ideas and principles, and not specific individuals.
I'm the same way.
Matthew
How truly admirable! Wow, I'm really impressed with your newfound integrity.
Too bad you didn't have it just a few days ago when you were 100% behind another loudmouth poster when he was naming names of some clergymen up in Cleveland and accusing them of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, child molestation, embezzelment, and breaking the confessional seal.
Hypocrite!
What if I knew a thief in your city, and knew that you were an acquaintance of his? How about I just tell you "There's a thief in this town, one who you invite into your house all the time" but don't name names?
I might as well be stealing from you myself, since I'm an accomplish to the thief's future theft.
Sometimes you have to name names, to protect the innocent and future victims.
You can reveal the true sins of others to select individuals -- who have a right to know -- for a good cause.
Let's see if you'll deny that Catholic doctrine.
Matthew
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No confusion on my part at all.
One poster is engaging in for what all I know could be a case of prosecutable libel. The other is only subtly casting aspersions on the work of some other priest, whoever he may be, because his Holy Mass doesn't meet that poster's impeccable standards.
What both threads have in common is that their OP's apparently feel some great need and responsibility to "decry" various abuses, and when someone responds to the contrary, they act offended and either accuse the defender of being personally involved in the case or of the same old canards of being lax and modernist, to which all the other sheeple happily chime in with their assent.
There's nothing Catholic about calumny and detraction.
As far as "revealing the true sins of others" don't you have to provide some kind of proof of this malfeasance? As I recall, you quickly banned Laurenzo and William for coming on here and simply trying to elicit some kind of verifiable proof of wrongdoing.
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After retiring to finish praying the daily rosary, I realized that I wish to apologize to stevus and matthew for calling them names. It was a childish response on my part.
I need to take a break from all the negativity on these forums, especially my own.
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SJT, very mature of you.
And just as an aside, I think cases where we need to prove malfeasance do not include those where the well being of others is reasonably suspect of being compromised. In those cases it is better, in my humble opinion, to make known the potential threats.
The burden of proof rests far better on the shoulders of those who wish to show that they are doing no harm, than those who wish to show that harm is being done.
Where do you attend mass(Which group)?
Sorry, Caraffa, I wasn't ignoring your post, I just didn't check this thread until now. I have researched and called the 'churches' in my area some time ago, when I was trying to find one I could go to, and to my dismay, there are none that are not in schismatic subjection to satan and his antipope. Except the CMRI 'parish' in London, but the problem there is that CMRI holds to heresy, and I think they don't bind people to the sedevacantist position, as they should, since it is a dogmatic fact.
I also (briefly) was looking for a seminary to study in, and I was about this close to joining under Sanborn, until I learned the truth about the baptism of desire heresy.
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Credo, I was told recently that the communion in the hand indult applies to the TLM and therefore priests in the NO must give communion in the hand to those who present themselves in this manner at a TLM. Is this correct?
I don't believe so. Recently at mass, someone tried to kneel and receive in the hand and Father gave a nod of his head and the man put his hands down and received on the tongue. From what I understand, the pope instructed the priests must follow the missal exactly. Though in the missal it does not say they are to receive Communion kneeling and on the tongue, it does have a picture of the proper way.
I believe bishops has caused this confusion because of the swine flu outbreak. They gave permission for all masses to give Communion in the hand to protect themselves and their parishes until further notice. Which of course is ridiculous, because it is airborne. It doesn't take much to see it is bishops taking yet another shot to undermined the importance of the reverence needed to receive the Blessed Sacrament.
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One AQ poster cited a docuмent that allows NO readings at TLM. I wouldn't have believed it unless I saw it. Ridiculous.
The same poster says the communion in the hand indult applies to the Roman Rite and thus the TLM is included. I HOPE this is not the case. Otherwise we'll soon be seeing girl altar boys at Motu Masses as well.
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Otherwise we'll soon be seeing girl altar boys at Motu Masses as well.
Who's going to stop them? No doubt it's already happened.
I fear the only reason many willl avoid those abuse is to attract people who might be tempted to go the SSPX or independent parishes.
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I have him a polite smile and told him "That's ok Father. Some of the way people dress to mass makes me feel uncomfortable too. But is not the new liberal way that 'tolerance' is the new virtue?
Yes, tolerance. The irony of something like Dignitatis Humanae is that the only religion whose freedom the Church hierarchy will not insist on is the Catholic one, which they attempt to suppress in one way or another nearly everywhere there are Catholics in the world.
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Throwing lit firecrackers into a room? Is there a "scratching head" emoticon? :laugh1:
How in the world is it obvious to Cath Info readers what church and priest I was referring to? I made absolutely no mention of either. What I described could go on at thousands of Motu parishes across the country.
One poster started guessing, though I still refuse to say one way or the other because, as I stated numerous times, the point is NOT to malign this particular priest, parish, church, parishoners, but for us to discuss the problems in the current Motu Masses. WHY does it matter what church it occurred in?
My comments were particular observations that represent general problems going on in the Motu. General principles are often concretely expressed well in particular examples. I thought this particular Mass experience was a good microcosm of the problems going on. If it helps you, imagine the whole thing was a fictional Mass. Then respond to the problems rather than trying to defend some particular individuals/ church you think was mentioned.
The "nun" in secular garb, who coincidentally (?) looked like every liberal "nun" I've ever known in my life, had no problem kneeling at the altar rail (right before she pulled a fast one by sticking her hands out to receive). Therefore she was physically capable of kneeling during the appropriate parts of the Mass and therefore the problem was one of will and not ability.
As far as the discussion, I think it went pretty well and thought it was over since this is from over a year ago. As long as we all address the specific behavior mentioned in the OP and don't get caught up in emotion trying to defend this uncertain church/ priest etc., I think the discussion would be fruitful.
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That is the "cardinal sin" of the Indult, and why I would never attend it no matter how reverent or beautiful the liturgy was.
What is that "cardinal sin"? Namely: believing that there is no Crisis in the Church; that it's simply about the Liturgy (the Mass) -- whereas the problem is actually the Catholic Faith itself being lost.
Yes, the Mass is a huge part of the Crisis, but only because the Mass is so central to the Faith. But it's the FAITH at stake in this Crisis in the Church. It's about Catholic dogma, identity, culture, the Priesthood, and relations with the modern world.
Matthew
:applause:
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I went to Mass this morning at the independent church I go to, and there was a young lady wearing a short(er) skirt. It was pretty short, especially in the back, to the point it was above her knees in the back. I saw her walk in, and I went up to her after I got my children settled in the pew, taking my infant back, and I advised her that there were longer skirts in the basement that she could have, and that I would turn the light on for her down there.
She didn't change, and after Mass, she kinda gave me a look (I thought). I thought to myself, "Well, it's better if someone says something privately to her, than to have people gawking at her committing a sin, and/or people talking behind her back."
I wasn't trying to offend her. I was concerned that her skirt was immodest and that it offended Our Lord, and I was concerned for the people that she ended up sitting in front of.
I don't think I was out of line at all, and I believe I'm going to bring up the topic to the priest(s) at the Church, because I'm seeing more youngsters (teenagers and even 20's) coming into Mass with skirts just barely at, and even a few inches -above- the knee, which really do not meet the standards of modesty.
It's something we should all be concerned about, and carefully tend to as far as with our children, and charitably mention it to those that we come in contact with, -especially- at Holy Mass.
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There was a time at the Mount when people would correct new comers, and they would never come back. Our new policy is to allow a new comer the benefit of the doubt, they have the grace to come in the first place not knowing the dress code. However, after they receive a bulletin with the dress code printed there and observe the modesty standards, they are apt to come back properly dressed, without any direct correction.
If this person was someone who comes often and is regarded as a "regular" then maybe someone might tactfully correct her as you did.
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I can tell you a story of a middle-aged man who had been talking about coming to our TLM for a few years. He always told us he had been an altar server and could still remember the Latin.
One Sunday he finally came and brought his 80ish year old mother with him. She was wearing the kind of dress pants suit that the elderly women nowadays often wear. Maybe she didn't own any dresses anymore, maybe her legs get cold in dresses, maybe it's easier for her to put on pants then stockings..... lots of possible reasons, or maybe that's just what she always wears when she goes to her NO mass. Well, the usher spoke to her, explaining the dress code and asked if she would please wear a dress the next time she came. I'm sure he was very polite, but she was offended and she and the son will not come again.
I like Myrna's Church's approach. If that idea had been employed in this situation, maybe they'd still be coming.
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Later on, I talked to one of the priests about it. He said I shouldn't have said anything to her, because likely she was new. She wasn't the only one dressed like this, either. There is a family that's been coming there for years, and now their daughters are in their twenties, and some of -their- children are teenagers, and have short skirts too. He's going to mention it.
Usually he handles this kind of thing in confession, so that he can advise them privately. Where this one priest is from, there's no screen for confession, so he can actually see them, and they are receptive to being admonished there. I didn't say that her skirt was too short. I said that there were longer ones that she could have in the basement. I thought I was pretty tactful, but I'm not going to say anything anymore.
I remember when I started going to the TLM, and there was an older lady (who ended up my confirmation sponsor, later on) who told me my skirt was too short. This was when I was fresh out of the NO. So I didn't think anything of it when I saw this lady.
Next time I'll keep my mouth shut. The priests can handle it.
:pop:
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Next time I'll keep my mouth shut. The priests can handle it.
Sometimes they do sometimes they don't.
I think you did the right thing. The fact is being traditionalist isn't a guarantee that a priest will do the right thing. We live in a time when so many priests are treasonous that standards must be imposed whether they are willing to impose them or not.
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I compare the tact in what I said to the strategic thing that Archie Bunker said in this episode of "All in the Family."
"That house doesn't have termites!"
"I never said it did!"
"Then what did you say?"
"I said I wouldn't buy a house that was riddled with termites!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqm8l6BTydA
:geezer:
:roll-laugh1: :laugh1: