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Author Topic: Another pickle the heretics have got themselves into  (Read 2184 times)

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Offline CM

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Another pickle the heretics have got themselves into
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2009, 11:49:30 PM »
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  • John Hardon is your new pope?

    Offline CMMM

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    Another pickle the heretics have got themselves into
    « Reply #16 on: August 13, 2009, 06:39:58 AM »
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  • Quote
    John Hardon is your new pope?


    No.

    But you certainly aren't.

    Quote
    So does a cat, a dog, a guinea pig, a horse... why didn't you argue that they also have the use of reason?


    I feel there is a difference between instinct and reason.  If you can prove everything a child who has not reached the age of reason, and a lunatic does are based solely on instinct, perhaps I could agree with you.


    Offline CM

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    Another pickle the heretics have got themselves into
    « Reply #17 on: August 13, 2009, 01:58:39 PM »
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  • Pope Pius X approved the teaching that children have not arrived at the use of reason (at least not sufficiently to be bound by the Divine Law, to distinguish between good and evil) until they reach the age of discretion, which is about 7 years old.

    Offline CM

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    Another pickle the heretics have got themselves into
    « Reply #18 on: August 13, 2009, 01:59:48 PM »
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  • Quam Singulari

    Offline CMMM

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    Another pickle the heretics have got themselves into
    « Reply #19 on: August 13, 2009, 05:48:55 PM »
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  • I'm still certain the term impious could be applied to any without a proper respect of God, whether it be from ignorance or choice.  

    For the record, I would call a dog impious, simply because it cannot be pious.  :laugh1:

    Additionally, from Quam Singulari

    Quote from: Quam Singulari
    A full and perfect knowledge of Christian doctrine is not necessary either for First Confession or for First Communion. Afterwards, however, the child will be obliged to learn gradually the entire Catechism according to his ability.


    I think, if a full understanding is not necessary for first confession or communion, but we are obliged afterward to learn the entire catechism, it would contain that which is necessary for a full and perfect knowledge.

    I assume you'll show how this is not binding, but the 7 year age is.






    Offline CM

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    Another pickle the heretics have got themselves into
    « Reply #20 on: August 13, 2009, 10:15:20 PM »
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  • The point here is that the Decree on Justification is talking about people with the use of reason, people with understanding and rationality.  It is so blatantly obvious from the very context of the decree itself, that I wonder why we are having this debate.

    ...whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath...

    ...under the power of the devil and of death...

    ...not even the Jews by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them...

    ...By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated...

    ...And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God...

    ...The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God...

    ...neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight...

    ...and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope...

    ...For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God...

    ...Having, therefore, been thus justified, and made the friends and domestics of God, advancing from virtue to virtue, they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day; that is, by mortifying the members of their own flesh, and by presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification...

    ...But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments...

    Offline CM

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    Another pickle the heretics have got themselves into
    « Reply #21 on: August 13, 2009, 10:23:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: C.M.M.M
    Quote from: Quam Singulari
    A full and perfect knowledge of Christian doctrine is not necessary either for First Confession or for First Communion. Afterwards, however, the child will be obliged to learn gradually the entire Catechism according to his ability.
    I assume you'll show how this is not binding, but the 7 year age is.


    Being bound by the Divine Law is dogmatic.  Being bound to learn the Catechism is disciplinary.  Failure to submit to either one is sinful.

    Quote from: Quam Singulari
    The knowledge of religion which is required in a child in order to be properly prepared to receive First Communion is such that he will understand according to his capacity those Mysteries of faith which are necessary as a means of salvation...


    This is dogmatic, since all must have firm knowledge and belief in the necessary dogmas: the Trinity, Incarnation, Passion, Judgement, etc.

    In other words, except a child who has attained the use of reason, profess the Catholic Faith and to preserve it whole and undefiled, he cannot be saved.