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Author Topic: More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics  (Read 7832 times)

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Offline Raoul76

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More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
« on: January 07, 2010, 09:03:17 PM »
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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline SJB

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 09:20:33 PM »
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    • If I get a protestant to pray a rosary with me, does that make me a heretic?
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    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline CM

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 09:37:48 PM »
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    • If you believe it's alright to do so, while the Protestant is set in his ways, yes.  You are giving credence to his false religion and leading him to believe that his prayers are not only not abominable before God, but even acceptable.  If you now it is sin but you do it anyway, then no, it just makes you schismatic (by refusing subjection to Church discipline).

    But Protestants are excommunicated by the law itself, and with such people are we forbidden by Pope Eugene IV in a dogmatic decree of the Church to communicate in sacred or (in this case) profane matters.

    Not to mention the various Scriptures that obviously condemn such a practice, like 2 Corinthians 6:15, Titus 3:10-11, 2 Epistle of St. John 1:10-11...


    If the Protestant, however, says to you "I feel Protestantism is wrong and I want to convert, please pray with me so that God will give me the grace to know the His truth..."  Then of course you can pray with him, because he is not a bad willed heretic, he is a good willed heretic who wants to be Catholic and is subjecting himself to the Catholic and following his lead.

    Just like catechumens, who are outside the Church, are nevertheless invited into the Mass of the Catechumens for this very same purpose - their conversion.  Obviously they would not be allowed if they are known or outspoken enemies of the Church.
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    Offline SJB

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #3 on: January 07, 2010, 09:53:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: CM
    If you believe it's alright to do so, while the Protestant is set in his ways, yes. You are giving credence to his false religion and leading him to believe that his prayers are not only not abominable before God, but even acceptable. If you now it is sin but you do it anyway, then no, it just makes you schismatic (by refusing subjection to Church discipline).


    "Set in his ways". What does that mean?

    A protestant who agrees to pray the Holy Rosary with a Catholic is confirmed in his error by doing so?  Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? The Rosary can hardly be seen by anyone as a prayer of a protestant's religion, it is a wholly Catholic prayer.

    Quote from: CM
    If the Protestant, however, says to you "I feel Protestantism is wrong and I want to convert, please pray with me so that God will give me the grace to know the His truth..." Then of course you can pray with him, because he is not a bad willed heretic, he is a good willed heretic who wants to be Catholic and is subjecting himself to the Catholic and following his lead.


    His actions are certainly speaking as well. The idea that these words must be said explicitly is ridiculous.
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    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline 008

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #4 on: January 07, 2010, 09:58:29 PM »
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    If I get a protestant to pray a rosary with me, does that make me a heretic?
    .........................

    CM: If you believe it's alright to do so, while the Protestant is set in his ways, yes. You are giving credence to his false religion


      :incense:  Because CM is one of the kookiest theo-logs here at CathInfo.com---and because he rabidly employs private judgment and interpretation, like the Dimond racketeers, across many lines, and now has the temerity to suggest that inviting another to pray in private---not ecclesial---prayer is not an act of evangelism, despite the Lord's praising the Faith of half-baked Centurions and Samaritans and accepting the gifts of pagan Wise Men and sinners, therefore we give his idiocy to the fαɢɢօts and flames of logic that his soul may be saved one day, as if by fire     :heretic:
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    Offline Vladimir

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 12:07:12 AM »
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    • The terms "bad will" and "good will" have been misappropriated to many times to have anymore meaning. The Diamonds use it like people use the term "αnтι-ѕємιтє" to smear their opponents.

    How can tell if he is good willed or bad willed? Even if he says that childish formula that you posted, how can you tell that he really has that intent? Its like at Mass. Even at the traditional Latin Mass, how can you be 100% sure that the priest has the proper intent?!? Its impossible! You just have to presume good intent.

    I'm sure that many Protestants, and likely even infidels, have been converted to the Catholic Faith by attending Holy Mass or praying the Rosary (maybe even just the three Hail Mary's in the morning and evening) - even when they do not yet believe in the Catholic Faith. According to your logic, it would be sinful to invite a devoted Protestant to Holy Mass or ask him to pray the Rosary (with or without you). This whole thing stinks of "Extra Ecclesiam nulla gratia".
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    Offline St Jude Thaddeus

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #6 on: January 08, 2010, 12:49:30 AM »
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    • I am (hopefully) in the process of converting two Protestants to the Faith. One was baptized in the Catholic Church but his parents switched to an evangelical cult soon afterwards. The other was born and raised Lutheran, then went to Church of Christ.

    The first one got married last year to a Catholic woman. He asked me some questions about the Rosary and I gave him one and showed him how to pray it. A few months later he began attending an N.O. church near his house. A few months after that he assisted at his first TLM with me. He has now accompanied me to several Latin Masses and still prays the Rosary. I have given him some apologetic literature which he is reading. All of this has happened within the space of less than a year. The hurdle to overcome with him is that he has drank deeply of the indifferentist KoolAid and believes that there may be "many paths to God." Unfortunately the evangelical mission he belonged to for twenty-some years instilled this mentality in him, and of course modern society in general hasn't helped.

    When I first gave him the Rosary, I did not know if he was "set in his ways." I still don't. I don't expect an instantaneous conversion. It takes a long time to root out heresy, even longer than it does to eliminate a long-held vice. I assumed he was good-willed because he asked me about it, I did my part by supplying him with the Rosary and instructions on its use, and I let the BVM do the rest.

    The second man, who is in his fifties, is very disappointed with all Protestant churches and had expressed admiration for the Catholic Church because of its "unified stance" on birth control, abortion, and gαy marriage. (If he only knew!) Anyway, I asked him if he had ever thought about becoming Catholic (an opening line I heard recommended by a priest on the AudioSancto site) and he said he would be interested. So far he has read some apologetic literature I have given him and assisted at one TLM. Please pray for both of these men! :pray:

    The second man is still unsure. It has only been a few weeks since I "propositioned" him. Is he bad-willed because he needs time to decide? More likely I need to sharpen my proselytizing skills. Anyway the Holy Spirit operates in its own time frame and I don't expect to have a 100% success rate. I can only hope for the best.
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    St. Jude, who, disregarding the threats of the impious, courageously preached the doctrine of Christ,
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    Offline CM

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #7 on: January 08, 2010, 12:57:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: SJB
    "Set in his ways". What does that mean?


    Protestants' ways are those of outright rejection of the Catholic Church.  "Set in his ways" means he's outright rejecting any part of the Catholic Church, OBVIOUSLY.

    Quote
    A protestant who agrees to pray the Holy Rosary with a Catholic is confirmed in his error by doing so?  Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? The Rosary can hardly be seen by anyone as a prayer of a protestant's religion, it is a wholly Catholic prayer.


    If you think that praying the Rosary means that one accepts the Catholic Faith you are sorely mistaken.  It is well established that Anglicans will pray the Rosary.  Are they or are they not Protestants?  If they adhere to the formality of their religion, do they or do they not reject Catholicism?

    Quote
    His actions are certainly speaking as well. The idea that these words must be said explicitly is ridiculous.


    Of course his actions are speaking as well.  When I said "If he says to you..." I didn't mean that he has to say a specific formula explicitly, but that he must convey such an attitude of humility.

    Quote
    despite the Lord's praising the Faith of half-baked Centurions and Samaritans and accepting the gifts of pagan Wise Men and sinners


    These were all humble and contrite before God.  A Protestant who is devoutly and actively and rejecting articles of the Divinely revealed religion is not in this category at all.  Nice try though.

    As for the "devoted Protestants" Vladimir, they are devoted enemies of God.  If God will convert them that is His business, and of course there is grace outside the Church, especially when Catholics pray for conversions.  Do you want me to dig up some of the many posts where I said just this, or do you want to stop implying that I hold a heresy when I do not?

    But if they are devoted to their false religion, not showing signs of conversion on the articles of the faith they have rejected, then avoiding them is OUR business, as St. Paul and the Magisterium have said.

    SJT, if the N.O. were Catholic and assuming the TLM you attend is (anti-una cuм, anti-BoD/NFP, etc), I would have zero problems with any of what you have said.  In that case you have met two people who I think would be classified as catechumens showing powerful signs of conversion.
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    Offline Raoul76

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #8 on: January 08, 2010, 01:08:12 AM »
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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #9 on: January 08, 2010, 01:25:12 AM »
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    • Correction:  "They think they are superior, and this was shown in that some Protestants found the Novus Ordo to be agreeable to them, as if they were the arbiters of how a Catholic Mass should be."  

    5 minutes for editing... Sigh.
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    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline pax

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #10 on: January 08, 2010, 06:40:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: CM
    Protestant ... prayers are abominable before God


    Not if they are praying for an increase in grace and faith.
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    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #11 on: January 08, 2010, 09:51:33 AM »
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    •   Well, I don't know if it is right, but some of those infidels who come to the churches here and pray, end in believeing in The Holy Trinity inspite of their initial hatred of this truth at first!
      Some young christians actually invite them to say an "our Father" with them, little by little faith comes along with it!
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    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #12 on: January 08, 2010, 09:54:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: pax
    Quote from: CM
    Protestant ... prayers are abominable before God


    Not if they are praying for an increase in grace and faith.


      What about prayers of a moslem child seeking for truth? They were answered with the grace of conversion.

       Anyway, I am no authority, if "he who prays with a heretic is himself a heretic" is The Church's word, I cannot justify what I did, even though it led to conversion.
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    Offline littlerose

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #13 on: January 08, 2010, 10:59:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: 008
    Quote
    If I get a protestant to pray a rosary with me, does that make me a heretic?
    .........................

    CM: If you believe it's alright to do so, while the Protestant is set in his ways, yes. You are giving credence to his false religion


      :incense:  Because CM is one of the kookiest theo-logs here at CathInfo.com---and because he rabidly employs private judgment and interpretation, like the Dimond racketeers, across many lines, and now has the temerity to suggest that inviting another to pray in private---not ecclesial---prayer is not an act of evangelism, despite the Lord's praising the Faith of half-baked Centurions and Samaritans and accepting the gifts of pagan Wise Men and sinners, therefore we give his idiocy to the fαɢɢօts and flames of logic that his soul may be saved one day, as if by fire     :heretic:


    I noticed that CM stopped calling me a heretic after I announced that I'm getting indulgences every time he does that. Since a Catholic could not get an indulgence for correctly being called a heretic, CM has proven that he knows he is wrong to throw that accusation around.

    And so I think he is nothing more than a theological forum-troll. People should not let themselves be fooled by his pretense of authority.
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    Offline Belloc

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    More heresy from Pius XII: Praying with Heretics
    « Reply #14 on: January 08, 2010, 12:12:53 PM »
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    • CM wrong about something, naaawwww, cant be  :roll-laugh2:

    you get indulgences and sacrements, you are way ahead of game...
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    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic
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