Author Topic: Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar. (Read 18941 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #180 on:** March 24, 2010, 10:55:15 AM »

Quote from: SJB

This is not Vatican II.

You're right. Vatican II made no mention of this, in wishing to emphasize the positive. But the passage I quoted above is precisely what Vatican II is based on.

Caminus · « **Reply #181 on:** March 24, 2010, 11:07:46 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Caminus
Quote
Here are the very seeds of Vatican II, folks, right before our eyes.

I find these demogogic pronouncements to be highly disingenuous considering that you persist in ignoring my posts explaining the manifest differences.

Your posts explain nothing. You refused to answer my simple question because you know that your answers lead to Vatican II.

I in fact did answer your question, several times now. Either you are blind or are lying. Now why don't you actually deal with what I say?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #182 on:** March 24, 2010, 11:22:47 AM »

Quote from: Caminus

Now why don't you actually deal with what I say?

Because you say nothing, with a lot of words.

You gave an answer, but it was not to the question I asked.

SJB · « **Reply #183 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:13:51 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
These catechisms were burned in many places after Vatican II.

I would burn them too, for different reasons. St. Pius X is reported to have taken the old Catholic Encyclopedia and slammed it to the ground when it was presented to him.

What you might do is really not relevant. Why did they burn them?

SJB · « **Reply #184 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:15:27 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: SJB
This is not Vatican II.

You're right. Vatican II made no mention of this, in wishing to emphasize the positive. But the passage I quoted above is precisely what Vatican II is based on.

Yes, that is your opinion. You have failed to show why it should be considered a valid opinion.

Alexandria · « **Reply #185 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:24:14 PM »

I'm sure I don't have to mention why many traditional catholics equivocate and dance around this issue. Here's my own examples, and both of them were baptized catholic.

I have a brother and a sister both in their sixties. My brother has had so many strokes that he is like a seven year old. Since he was about eighteen, he considered himself an agnostic. Before he lost his grip on reality, he was dabbling in pagan stuff - you know, the goddess diana bit. My sister lost her faith in college thanks to a communist professor. She regained it briefly in the early nineties only to let it lead her to the new age nonsense. She is a real intellectual - what her brilliant mind cannot comprehend she dismisses. Funny how she will accept that diabolical book "A Course In Miracles" but will dismiss the New Testament as pious tales. Funny, too, how satan has a way of doing that with all of us. He always double crosses his stooges.

Now, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

These are my examples. Many here must have relatives who are not Catholic. No one wants to even think of anyone going to hell. Faith is a gift, isn't it?

On the other hand, if what this invincible ignorance stuff, (which has been really been brought to ridiculous extremes this day and age) is true, why be Catholic? Why be anything? "Just whistle a happy tune and let your conscience be your guide. "

SJB · « **Reply #186 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:33:58 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

I'm sure I don't have to mention why many traditional catholics equivocate and dance around this issue. Here's my own examples, and both of them were baptized catholic.

I have a brother and a sister both in their sixties. My brother has had so many strokes that he is like a seven year old. Since he was about eighteen, he considered himself an agnostic. Before he lost his grip on reality, he was dabbling in pagan stuff - you know, the goddess diana bit. My sister lost her faith in college thanks to a communist professor. She regained it briefly in the early nineties only to let it lead her to the new age nonsense. She is a real intellectual - what her brilliant mind cannot comprehend she dismisses. Funny how she will accept that diabolical book "A Course In Miracles" but will dismiss the New Testament as pious tales. Funny, too, how satan has a way of doing that with all of us. He always double crosses his stooges.

Now, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

These are my examples. Many here must have relatives who are not Catholic. No one wants to even think of anyone going to hell. Faith is a gift, isn't it?

On the other hand, if what this invincible ignorance stuff, (which has been really been brought to ridiculous extremes this day and age) is true, why be Catholic? Why be anything? "Just whistle a happy tune and let your conscience be your guide. "

Many people are manifestly lacking supernatural faith and charity. Many are manifestly NOT invincibly ignorant of their duty to join the Church. These people will be lost.

I think the problem for many traditional Catholics is that they think they must assume that all non-Catholics are invincibly ignorant.

Alexandria · « **Reply #187 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:45:05 PM »

Are you saying then that there is a good chance that my brother will go to hell?

trad123 · « **Reply #188 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:54:41 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

Are you saying then that there is a good chance that my brother will go to hell?

The possibility is admitted that a person in invincible ignorance with the other necessary conditions can be saved. Only the possibility is admitted, good hope for such a person and their salvation? absolutely not.

trad123 · « **Reply #189 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:59:54 PM »

Ah, let me restate that, there is no good hope that a person may be in such conditions.

SJB · « **Reply #190 on:** March 24, 2010, 12:59:57 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

Are you saying then that there is a good chance that my brother will go to hell?

Does that thought shock you? Even Catholics who are living in manifestly sinful situations will be damned if they do not amend their lives. Our duty is to pray for them and sacrifice for them; many times this is all we can do.

Alexandria · « **Reply #191 on:** March 24, 2010, 01:01:25 PM »

But he never was invincibley ignorant since he went to Catholic schools - he just thought that "organized religions" were unnecessary.

Just give it to me straight. Are you (plural) saying that someone like my brother's fate is sealed by his condition which leaves no human hope of final repentance?

Caminus · « **Reply #192 on:** March 24, 2010, 01:05:15 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Caminus
Now why don't you actually deal with what I say?

Because you say nothing, with a lot of words.

You gave an answer, but it was not to the question I asked.

Pure evasion.

trad123 · « **Reply #193 on:** March 24, 2010, 01:06:14 PM »

There is always hope that a person may repent and believe before they die, but prayer is a means of obtaining grace. I'm pretty sure Our Lady of Fatima said most people go to Hell because no one prays and makes sacrifices for them, also because most people don't pray themselves.

St. Alphonsus said that a person who does not pray will certainly be damned, but that is also if no one prays for them.

SJB · « **Reply #194 on:** March 24, 2010, 01:09:49 PM »

Quote from: Alexandria

But he never was invincibley ignorant since he went to Catholic schools - he just thought that "organized religions" were unnecessary.

Just give it to me straight. Are you (plural) saying that someone like my brother's fate is sealed by his condition which leaves no human hope of final repentance?

Except we have more than human hope. Nobody's fate is sealed...there is always hope for their conversion and to die a holy death.