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Author Topic: Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.  (Read 18917 times)

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Offline Belloc

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Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.
« Reply #210 on: March 24, 2010, 01:55:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    What is "DP thinking"?


    DP=double predestination

    there are some on here that are going to such extremes they are starting to sound more prot......
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Alexandria

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    Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.
    « Reply #211 on: March 24, 2010, 01:58:25 PM »
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  • What is double predestination?


    Offline Belloc

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    Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.
    « Reply #212 on: March 24, 2010, 02:14:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    What is double predestination?


    http://www.gotquestions.org/double-predestination.html

    "Answer: Double predestination is the belief that God creates some people whose purpose in existence is to be sent to hell"

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12376b.htm

    Heretical Predestinarianism received a new and vigorous impulse at the outbreak of the Reformation. Luther having denied the freedom of the will in sinful man as also freedom in the use of grace, logically placed the eternal destiny of the individual solely and entirely in the hands of God, who without any regard to merit or demerit metes out heaven or hell just as He pleases. Zwingli endeavoured to obviate the grave consequences that this principle necessarily produces in the moral order by the vain excuse that "just as God incited the robber to commit murder, so also He forces the judge to impose the penalty of death on the murderer" (De provid. Dei, in "Opera" ed. Schuler, IV, 113). Melanchthon taught expressly that the treason of Judas was just as much the work of God as was the vocation of St. Paul (cf. Trident., Sess. VI, can. vi, in Denzinger, n. 816). Calvin is the most logical advocate of Predestinarianism pure and simple. Absolute and positive predestination of the elect for eternal life, as well as of the reprobate for hell and for sin, is one of the chief elements of his whole doctrinal system and is closely connected with the all-pervading thought of "the glory of God". Strongly religious by nature and with an instinct for systematizing, but also with a harsh unyielding character, Calvin was the first to weave the scattered threads which he thought he had found in St. Paul, St. Augustine, Wyclif, Luther, and Bucer, into a strong network which enveloped his entire system of practical and theoretical Christianity. Thus he became in fact the systematizer of the dread doctrine of predestination. Although Calvin does not deny that man had free will in paradise, still he traces back the fall of Adam to an absolute and positive decree of God (Instit., I, 15, 8; III, 23, 8).

    Original sin completely destroyed the freedom of will in fallen man; nevertheless, it is not the motive of the decretum horribile, as he himself calls the decree or reprobation. Calvin is an uncompromising Supralapsarian. God for His own glorification, and without any regard to original sin, has created some as "vessels of mercy", others as "vessels of wrath". Those created for hell He has also predestined for sin, and whatever faith and righteousness they may exhibit are at most only apparent, since all graces and means of salvation are efficacious only in those predestined for heaven. The Jansenistic doctrine on redemption and grace in its principal features is not essentially different from Calvinism. The unbearable harshness and cruelty of this system led to a reaction among the better-minded Calvinists, who dreaded setting the "glory of God" above his sanctity. Even on so strictly Calvinistic a soil as Holland, Infralapsarianism, i.e. the connexion of reprobation with original sin, gained ground. England also refused to adhere to the strictly Calvinistic Lambeth Articles (1595), although in later years their essential features were embodied in the famous Westminster Confession of 1647 which was so strenuously defended by the English Puritans. On the other hand the Presbyterian Church in the United States has endeavoured to mitigate the undeniable harshness of Calvinism in its revision of its Confession in May, 1903, in which it also emphasizes the universality of the Divine love and even does not deny the salvation of children who die in infancy.



    Comment-have seen Calvinists that state only they go to Heaven, Catholics automatically go to Hell......no matter ignorance, deceit,etc taught to them, Catholic= hellbound....no grace and mercy of God considered....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline SJB

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    Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.
    « Reply #213 on: March 24, 2010, 02:20:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    Here's another question related to this.

    Where does that leave all of us who may be on the "wrong side of the fence" during this horrid crisis?


    Quote from: Cardinal Franzelin
    17. "On account of the distinction as explained [between sedes and sedens], in so far as the Apostolic See can never fail in its permanence by divine right and law, but the individual occupants [sedentes], being mortal, fail at intervals, the APOSTOLIC SEE ITSELF, as the necessary foundation and center of unity of the Church can never be called in doubt without heresy; but it can happen sometimes, in great disturbances, and it is evident from history that it has happened, that many men, while holily keeping the Faith and veneration towards the Apostolic See as true Catholics, without their own fault are not able to acknowledge the one seated in the Apostolic See, and therefore while in no way falling into heresy, slip into schism, which however is not formal but only material.  Thus in the lamentable disturbance throughout forty years, from Urban VI until Gregory XII [the Great Western Schism], Catholics were split into two and then three obediences, as they were then called, while all acknowledged and revered the divine rights of the Apostolic See; nevertheless, not acknowledging the right of the one seated in the Apostolic See, from invincible ignorance of the lawful succession [i.e. as to which claimant was the lawful successor] and thus adhering either to no one, or to a pseudo-pontiff.  Among these, even saints such as St. Vincent Ferrer for a time, and his brother Boniface, a Carthusian Prior, were implicated in material schism." (Ibid. p. 223-4)



    Quote
    Also, SJB, you asked if that shocked me.  Yes, after almost forty years of continually hearing about the mercy of God, yes, it did shock me.


    There is a time for meditation on the four last things, death, judgment, heaven, and hell. There is also a time to consider God's infinite mercy. It is an error to exclude the consideration of either one.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Alexandria

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    Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.
    « Reply #214 on: March 24, 2010, 02:20:50 PM »
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  • Thank you,  Belloc.


    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #215 on: March 24, 2010, 02:20:53 PM »
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  • well said!
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.
    « Reply #216 on: March 24, 2010, 04:22:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: trad123
    Baltimore Catechism No. 3 Father Connell's Confraternity Edition

    167. What do we mean when we say, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"?

    When we say, "outside the Church there is no salvation," we mean that those who through their own grave fault do not know that the Catholic Church is the true Church or, knowing it, refuse to join it, cannot be saved.

    (a) "Outside the Church there is no salvation" does not mean that everyone who is not a Catholic will be condemned. It does mean that no one can be saved unless he belongs in some manner to the Catholic Church, either actually or in desire, (my emphasis) for the means of grace are not given without some relation to the divine institution established by Christ.

    168. Can they be saved who remain outside the Catholic Church because they do not know it is the true Church?

    They who remain outside the Catholic Church through no grave fault of their own and do not know it is the true Church, can be saved by making use of the graces which God gives them.

    (a) Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own are not culpable in the sight of God because of their invincible ignorance.

    (b) Persons who make use of the graces God gives them, even though they are not members of the true Church, actually have the desire to become members inasmuch as they wish to use all means ordained by God for their salvation.

    (c) We should pray and try to persuade others to investigate the teachings of the Catholic Church because charity obliges us to do all we can to lead others to salvation. We should also pray for Catholic missionaries and help them in their work of bringing the faith to those outside the Catholic Church.


    Guys, Vatican II ecclesiology is RIGHT HERE in the Baltimore Catechism.  They speak of a Church which is bigger than the Catholic Church, since one does not have to be Catholic in order to belong to it.  So at the core we have the Catholics, the "members", and other people who are not Catholic and not members who are glommed onto the Church somehow.

    Quote
    They who remain outside the Catholic Church ... can be saved ...


    Heresy !  Here you have a word-for-word rejection of EENS.

    They create a Church that's broader and bigger than the Catholic Church.  In fact they even use the term "true Church".  Vatican II stated that the "true Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church."

    Right here you alread have Vatican II ecclesiology.  Wake UP !

    Offline Raoul76

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    Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.
    « Reply #217 on: March 24, 2010, 04:23:44 PM »
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  • Alexandria, because anyone can have a last-minute conversion that goes unseen, we hardly ever know if anyone is truly in hell unless he commits ѕυιcιdє like Judas ( in which case it was truly said that it would have been better for him if he had never been born ).

    For instance, as someone slips into a coma, unable to speak, he could say "If God gives me another chance I'll be Catholic," while all that his family sees is that he died professing atheism.  Something like this is probably extremely rare, but not impossible, since the fear of death is more powerful than any other motive to turn to God and the truth.  But if from external evidence, if all we see is that the person died unrepentant, they can't have a Christian burial -- if such a thing even exists in our time.  

    There is certainly no "good hope" that someone who dies externally unrepentant will be saved.  In fact, the chances are infinitesimal.  But think about the Good Thief -- God does work miracles, and while that may not give you good hope, it should at least keep you from despair.  

    As for how God will judge us if we choose the wrong side of this crisis, that is the greatest of mysteries.  I like to think that he has given each of us particular abilities, and that while some will choose a BETTER way, all those who are of good will will find an appropriate way.  If my position is correct, my crown will be greater than that of a priest in SSPX.  But hopefully God will take mercy on that priest.  And vice versa -- if I'm wrong, I hope He'll take mercy on me.  

    But He knows His own, and if there is something twisted in my spirit, or in the spirit of an SSPX priest, He sees it.  I don't feel my salvation is in any way assured.  All I know is that the more you mistrust yourself, the safer you are.  

    *****

    P.S. Today I learned that it is considered by some to be a deadly sin to call a priest a liar.  Of course, the title of this thread calls Mgr. Fenton a baldfaced liar.  In my defense, when I wrote that I considered invincible ignorance to be a heresy ( I go back and forth on that ) and Mgr. Fenton to be essentially not a priest and to be a proto-VII type.

    Nevertheless, I'd appreciate it if people would take the implicit faith discussion into the Mystici Corporis Christi thread or a new thread of their own choosing, and to let this one die.  At any rate, I'm not posting in it again.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline SJB

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    Monsignor Fenton -- baldfaced liar.
    « Reply #218 on: March 24, 2010, 04:38:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Guys, Vatican II ecclesiology is RIGHT HERE in the Baltimore Catechism.  They speak of a Church which is bigger than the Catholic Church, since one does not have to be Catholic in order to belong to it.


    No, they do not.

    Quote from: Baltimore Catechism
    (a) "Outside the Church there is no salvation" does not mean that everyone who is not a Catholic will be condemned. It does mean that no one can be saved unless he belongs in some manner to the Catholic Church, either actually or in desire, for the means of grace are not given without some relation to the divine institution established by Christ.


    This is not a denial of the dogma of EENS. It does not say the Church is "bigger" than the Catholic Church.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Alexandria

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    « Reply #219 on: March 24, 2010, 04:39:44 PM »
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  • Ladislaus

    I have a book - a biography of a member of the Society of the Sacred Heart - who was stationed at Manhattanville College.  She was a good friend of John Courtney Murray, S.J. who used to come there in the late nineteen thirties and during the nineteen forties and talk to them about religious liberty.  It said in the book that after Vatican II, she was "delighted" that the entire Church caught up with him.

    ************

    Raoul

    Now you have me more confused than I normally am.  Are you saying that you now are a proponent of invincible ignorance?


    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #220 on: March 24, 2010, 04:45:12 PM »
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  • Here's a quote on "Error has no rights" from a Novus Ordo reference book: after correctly explaining the phrase, viz. the rights of a sincere but erroneous conscience are in no wise equal to the rights of sincere and correct conscience, it succinctly says,

    "The Second Vatican Council rejected this thinking in its Declaration on Religious Freedom (n.3)."

    The other related articles are long hymns of praise to the heretic John Courtney Murray.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #221 on: March 24, 2010, 06:00:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Guys, Vatican II ecclesiology is RIGHT HERE in the Baltimore Catechism.  They speak of a Church which is bigger than the Catholic Church, since one does not have to be Catholic in order to belong to it.


    No, they do not.


    Indeed they do, SJB.  They EXPLICITLY state that not everyone who's saved is Catholic, that it is not only Catholics and members of the Church who can be saved, but other people, non-Catholics, non-members of the Church who are nevertheless somehow attached to the Church based on their "wish" to follow whatever lights God gave them.  That's precisely the Vatican II Lumen Gentium "subsistit" ecclesiology.  They're saying that the true Church consists of Catholics AND non-Catholics.

    Then I quoted their WORD-FOR-WORD denial of EENS.

    You guys are in complete denial; it's righ there in front of your faces.

    Have you even read V2's Lumen Gentium?  It's proposing this exact same ecclesiology.

    And making this "wish" to follow one's conscience the criterion for salvation leads directly to Religious Liberty.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #222 on: March 24, 2010, 06:38:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    Pius IX taught some people were invincibly ignorant, so too Baltimore Cath, so I guess we can credit Pius IX for sowing seeds for V2....planning to invalidate him??


    Pius IX taught that invincible ignorance was exculpatory, not salvific.  By its very nature it simply cannot be salvific.

    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #223 on: March 25, 2010, 07:42:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Indeed they do, SJB.  They EXPLICITLY state that not everyone who's saved is Catholic, that it is not only Catholics and members of the Church who can be saved, but other people, non-Catholics, non-members of the Church who are nevertheless somehow attached to the Church based on their "wish" to follow whatever lights God gave them.  That's precisely the Vatican II Lumen Gentium "subsistit" ecclesiology.  They're saying that the true Church consists of Catholics AND non-Catholics.


    Catechumens are not members, yet they can be saved.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #224 on: March 25, 2010, 01:58:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Indeed they do, SJB.  They EXPLICITLY state that not everyone who's saved is Catholic, that it is not only Catholics and members of the Church who can be saved, but other people, non-Catholics, non-members of the Church who are nevertheless somehow attached to the Church based on their "wish" to follow whatever lights God gave them.  That's precisely the Vatican II Lumen Gentium "subsistit" ecclesiology.  They're saying that the true Church consists of Catholics AND non-Catholics.


    Catechumens are not members, yet they can be saved.


    So you say.  If they are saved, then they are members.