I agree with Classicom that what we need to always believe in is what the Church taught always and everywhere (as much as possible).  

The problem with infallibility is that it wasn't a universal belief then or now.  And its not even a reality.

The Roman Pope should not act outside of the universal ancient church and against the other popes and bishops, or against tradition.  There is nothing prudent about that.  He should listen to all the Bishops and then make proclamations in unison with the Church and not against it.

I think there should be a way to depose any bishop including a Pope for heresy.  And that no bishop is infallible and incapable of falling into heresy.  And that one Bishop can not act alone against all other bishops and against tradition and ancient belief.

I think that the Holy Spirit protects the unity of the Christian church.  Otherwise, what is to stop any person from becoming Pope and declaring that pigs fly?  The Holy Spirit isn't the Pope's body guard.  He is not there to protect the individual but the truth of Jesus Christ.

You can't have truth and heresy together.  Where there is one the other is absent.  So who protects the truth?  Is it one man on earth? Or is it the entire church acting according to tradition?  

Quote from: Leisa

Thank you for the link.  According to the links Classicom provided and your link above, it shows that prior to the 300's ? the term pope was applied to several Bishops as it was a name meaning father or papa.  
So even that link you provided shows that at that time there was a Pope of Alexandria, St. Peter or Pope Peter, and Pope Damasus of Rome.

So my point was that they were equal in terms of power and authority until some point when Rome started to make decisions without consulting the other Bishops.

Telesphorus- the church has fallen into heresy.  

What is the approximate century since which you assert the Church has been heretical?

Without reference to the crisis of Vatican II, the N.O., and other resulting problems, do you discern "heresies" pre-dating the 1950s, other than your position on the role of the Pope?

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  You can argue heresies, I prefer the Apocalypse 12:12 guide stone. It is a matter of following the 10 commandments and acknowledging Christ as Savior,   helping the poor etc. What are you expecting from St. Peter at the end of your spiritual journey : You were flying Catholic Infallible Airlines - in the infallible section as opposed to the fallible section , therefore well done my son .

  You have to give Pope John Paul II credit for his apology for the sack of Constantinople. If we attempt to judge by the fruits, what in the heck did the Orthodox do to deserve that kind of treatment.? Ours was the superior theology that committed this act and also the Crusades ? So for future Classicom reference, lets call this the age of Club Superior 1054-1870 .  I wonder if anyone has pondered the link between war and Marianology? Crusades/1251 Simon Stock etc.

  On the positive side you have to credit Club Infallible with upholding the traditional Christian teaching on birth control. Pretty much the remainder of the Christian world has caved in on that vital point.

2 Timothy 3:6

For of these sort are they who creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, who are led away with divers desires: 7 Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Mambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no farther; for their folly shall be manifest to all men, as theirs also was.

  Just like they tried to undermine the authority of Moses (symbol of the pope) , modern fathers have been undermined by their own wives, who preferred birth control and woman's liberation - THis was assisted by the government financial assistance that attempted to destroy the role of a father and family and instead create a brave new world.

So instead of a stay at home mother teaching and raising her children, She has been tricked into a forced government slave work camp. That is called "liberation" in Newspeak.

Douay-Rheims Bible  Malachi 4:6
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers: lest I come, and strike the earth with anathema

  So to me that is the big agenda. Fatima and papal ego tripping  are symptoms of people in denial who refuse to accept personal responsibility by holding their leadership (and themselves) accountable to God's laws.  JPII and Ratzinger fail the 12:12 test.

a big questions is "why should we care what schismatic orthodox say, when daily they drift farther and farther from the Fide"

Quote from: Classiccom

  You can argue heresies, I prefer the Apocalypse 12:12 guide stone. It is a matter of following the 10 commandments and acknowledging Christ as Savior,   helping the poor etc. What are you expecting from St. Peter at the end of your spiritual journey : You were flying Catholic Infallible Airlines - in the infallible section as opposed to the fallible section , therefore well done my son .
. . .

  On the positive side you have to credit Club Infallible with upholding the traditional Christian teaching on birth control. Pretty much the remainder of the Christian world has caved in on that vital point.

. . .

You say follow the Commandments and and acknowledge Christ as Savior,   help the poor etc.  There are several who purport to do that, but are on different sides on the abortion issue.  Without the benefit of "Club Infallible," where may legitimate authority be found for saying whether abortion is against the Fifth Commandment?  Same situation with birth control--where is the legitimate authority for saying whether it is wrong or not, if not with"Club Infallible?"

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  I did not dispute popes have authority.  In the Old Testament Christ used some pretty strong language to criticize the Chair of Moses occupants, but they were obliged to honor the office. They represented the Law of Moses but in the real world they were degenerates just like the modern papacy.(They were stumbling blocks that made converts twofold the sons of hell- sound familiar ?) . With the crew we have endured, it has to be a miracle that the Church even exists after 2000 years. Ratzinger and company seem to be doing their best to finish off the Chruch.

Quote from: Leisa

Thank you for the link.  According to the links Classicom provided and your link above, it shows that prior to the 300's ? the term pope was applied to several Bishops as it was a name meaning father or papa.  
So even that link you provided shows that at that time there was a Pope of Alexandria, St. Peter or Pope Peter, and Pope Damasus of Rome.

So my point was that they were equal in terms of power and authority until some point when Rome started to make decisions without consulting the other Bishops.

Telesphorus- the church has fallen into heresy.  

What is the approximate century since which you assert the Church has been heretical?

Without reference to the crisis of Vatican II, the N.O., and other resulting problems, do you discern "heresies" pre-dating the 1950s, other than your position on the role of the Pope?

I really can't answer that question because I haven't studied every pope, nor every council.  There are other heresies besides infallibility like baptism of desire and invincible ignorance.  How long has ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity been protected by the Roman church?  Why did Pius IX keep a boy in his quarters that he kidnapped and refused to return to his parents.  If that was not his illegitimate child then I dare say what that was all about.

When you plant seeds it takes time for them to grow and longer for them to blossom.  I cannot say when those seeds were planted and by whom but if you want to find out you'll have to go back to the early church and the schism.  Then move up history and study the decisions that were made by Popes.

My guess is that the Orthodox would be able to provide you with some clues.  They must have seen the inherent dangers of a supreme and untouchable leader and the threat that posed to the preservation of the true faith.

Remember Matthew 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

My guess is that if you are not bound to God and his commandments he will not be bound to you.  If you let go of the truth then the truth will not be a part of you.

So if the Church lets go of the truth then they will be seperated from it and seperated from Heaven as well.

Thats just my guess but I could be wrong.

You're mixing a lot of issues together.  

Edgaro Mortara was a baptized Christian.  He shouldn't have been raised by his parents once he was a baptized Christian.  If you do hold to Father Feeney's positions on Baptism then it's surprising you don't think it was right to protect his Christian Faith.

So what you are saying is that the Catholic church endorses kidnapping if a child is baptized and the parents are not?
Surely you jest.

I suppose you would rather the child had become a Jєωιѕн Christ hater.  How long have you been a Catholic?