Author Topic: MikeO asks "How has a new religion been created with Vatican II?"  (Read 2751 times)

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Offline Matthew

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The famous MikeO said:

If you believe with utter intellectual sincerity that a "new religion" has been created post-1965 which seeks to systematically eradicate genuine Catholicism, it would be helpful to provide some fairly strong evidence to corrobate as much.

Perhaps your statement was merely rhetorical flourish, but it remains difficult at times to tell. Other self-named traditionalists (Fr. Moderator, the Dimonds, Cekada, and perhaps Drolesky come to mind) formally refer to "Newchurch" and "Newpope" as though the last vestige of Catholic Faith has been utterly excised from the Church. Such an assertion clashes dangerously (if not unquestionably) with the Church's indefectibility.


To which I replied:

Intellectual sincerity? To God alone be the glory, I only have one setting: sincerity.

A case could be made that a new religion was desired: we have a new Mass, a new priesthood (president, friendly guy, facilitator vs. offerer of Sacrifice), new Sacraments, a new language, a new Pentecost (Vatican II vs. the real Pentecost), new philosophy (subjectivism and idealism to replace St. Thomas and Scholasticism), new devotions, new outlook on the world, new outlook on other religions, new outlook on Freemasons/Jews/Communists, new architecture, new emphasis on Scripture, new kind of praying (ad-libbed prayers vs. memorized/set vocal prayers), new attitude toward sin (we must LOVE the sinner, not correct him!), and so forth.

So much was made "new" that there was nothing old left -- except what they were unable to get to.

I don't agree with the Sedes that the Catholic Church is only found where the TLM is said -- that's not true. But the Faith is being lost, slowly but surely, in the Novus Ordo branch of the Catholic Church. Some people are holding on somehow (by God's grace) but ignorance is at record levels, and morals are falling lower every day.

God bless,

Matthew
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Offline CampeadorShin

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MikeO asks "How has a new religion been created with Vatican II?"
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2007, 12:46:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    Such an assertion clashes dangerously (if not unquestionably) with the Church's indefectibility.


    The Church is indefectible, but the Bishops and priests are not.
    Catholic warriors:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=490&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
    My older avatar of Guy Fawkes that caused so much arguing, made by peters_student:
    http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6007


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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  • Quote from: ChantCd
    ...But the Faith is being lost, slowly but surely, in the Novus Ordo branch of the Catholic Church...


    Are you espousing some form of the famous (and condemned) 'Branch Theory' here, Matthew?  Is She ONE or not?
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline CampeadorShin

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  • I'm sure Matthew mistakenly used that word gladius.
    Catholic warriors:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=490&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
    My older avatar of Guy Fawkes that caused so much arguing, made by peters_student:
    http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6007

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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  • He may have, as I take him to be a solid, thinking man, and a solid Catholic.  Most of us do not use particular words by mistake, although we do sometimes use them without realizing their import.
    + Vincit veritas +


    Offline MichaelSolimanto

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  • Funny... the branch theory is that the Church is not visible and I've never seen the sedevacantism Church as the dogmas of the Church teach us it exists. Where is this version of the Church in South America by and large, in Africa, Asia, Europe and the North America? Who are it's cardinals who are to elect a Pope?

    Who really believes in the Branch Theory, a theory made up to denigrate the necessity of a fully visible, hierarchical Church?
    God bless,
    Michael Solimanto

    Offline Kephapaulos

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  • Well, I know that the Church right now is in a very confused state. You have liberals, neoconservatives, conservatives, and traditionalists, but she is always directed toward heaven and always goes against the current of the world. Sadly though, many Catholics seem to want to equate or synthesize the Catholic faith and the spirit of the world, which cannot be done at all without compromising the Catholic faith and spiritually harming the faithful.  
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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  • Quote from: MichaelSolimanto
    Where is this version of the Church in South America by and large, in Africa, Asia, Europe and the North America? Who are it's cardinals who are to elect a Pope?



    Mike,

    Before we get into this one, could you please define what Holy Church means by "visible", for I cannot recall reading that it means such and such elements must be present on all populated continents, for example.

    You are pulling these criteria out of your...um...pocket, and they will not pass muster.

    Btw, where, in the days of the early Church - when she was clearly as essentially visible as she is now, despite living a literally underground existence for centuries - were the 'elements of visibility' of which you speak?  

    Let us say you have successfully listed certain criteria upon which we both agree.  Well, does the certain lack of these things in the vast majority of the world for a very long time change the fact that Holy Church was visible from day one?  No.
    + Vincit veritas +


    Offline MichaelSolimanto

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  • Visible = to be seen

    Your Church cannot be seen unless you have specialized knowledge of theologians opinions which never carry to the level sedes bring them to.

    When I met Bishop Veselis (a sede bishop) he flat out told me that the only way he could understand there to be another pope is for Christ to come down and elect one in a miraculous event. Can you tell me how you see it?  

    Without getting into quoting ad nauseum from authors please explain on a practical level where the Church is. If you want a commentary on the visibility as a mark of the Church read Rev. Berry's "The Church of Christ" published in the 30's.

    The sede version of the Church is unthinkable to any Catholic theologian. It is the branch theory re-packaged.
    God bless,
    Michael Solimanto

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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  • Quote from: MichaelSolimanto
    Visible = to be seen


    Is that from Webster's, or a manual pertaining to Catholic dogma?

    Quote
    When I met Bishop Veselis (a sede bishop) he flat out told me that the only way he could understand there to be another pope is for Christ to come down and elect one in a miraculous event.


    Bp. Viselis is considered a nut by other sedes, so leave him out of the discussion.  Do that, and I shall (as is sensible) avoid making the absurd argument that 1000's of sodomite priests adhering to BXVI can be brought forth as proof of his non-papacy/non-Catholicity.

    As for the other things you mention, define "visible" with some rigor, and perhaps we can go from there.  If you want some help, see the thread I started with a quote from St. Francis de Sales.

    I see you left the 'substantially-present-on-all-continents' nonsense out of this response.  Well done.  I also see that you - as all others I have encountered - totally ignored the comparison with the early Church, which was certainly not visible by the standards these people have set, nor by those you seem to be proposing.
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline MichaelSolimanto

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    MikeO asks "How has a new religion been created with Vatican II?"
    « Reply #10 on: March 30, 2007, 07:51:06 PM »
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  • Since you hijacked the thread, like every thread that pertains to something else into sede-world it's on you to show me what theologians believed in your version of a visible Church that is a city set on a hill.

    I really don't want to debate with you. You already have shown how you hijack threads, project Veselis's views with ad hominem attacks with sodomy (as if I don't know sede priests who aren't sodomites) as your catalyst.

    This is a common theme among sedes... hijack other people's statements and tell the world why every word and act is not according to your vision, promote your ideals as if there is no tomorrow, and act rude to other people (not to me, but previously). That may be ad hominem, but it's certainly true in every sede camp I've ever seen in regards to how they promote their ideas. I just don't have time to waste on your myopic, diabolic campaign.
    God bless,
    Michael Solimanto


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    MikeO asks "How has a new religion been created with Vatican II?"
    « Reply #11 on: March 31, 2007, 03:26:25 PM »
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  • Fair enough, MS.  Cheers.  God speed, and a blessed Holy Week to you (and all who read this).
    + Vincit veritas +

    Offline Stephanos

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  • ----------------------------------------------

    Lk:1:78:
    78  Through the heart of the mercy of our God, in which the Orient from on high hath visited us:

     

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