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Terry Carroll said on October 26, 2012 on Philothea on Phire

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Please take seriously my comment left on the other post: http://bit.ly/RnkcGZ

I could not be more sympathetic to the SSPX as a temptation for those suffering through the insults to Our Lord at so many Novus Ordo Masses. But it is terribly easy to rationalize one's participation on a regular basis as if we were recusants during the period of the English Reformation. The Church Herself has not declared a "state of emergency" and it is hubris to assume that WE can.

SSPX priests are validly ordained, their Masses are valid, but they are in all cases acts of disobedience to the Church. SSPX priests do not have faculties to hear confessions. I, personally, do not wish to "gamble" on "Deus supplet" on a matter so urgent. I, personally, experience even MORE pain at the idea that a priest of God offers the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in persona Christi disobediently than I do at the worst excuses for Mass that I have experienced in Novus Ordo settings.

Suffer through Novus Ordo Masses, even refrain from receiving Holy Communion, rather than rationalize your participation in a Mass that quite likely is even more insulting to God than the Masses you now endure. The cry of Satan was "Non serviam," the penultimate act of disobedience. It is conceivable that SSPX Masses are as offensive to God as Black Masses. God is not mocked, and God does not bless disobedience. Stay with the Church and, in the best traditional sense, "offer it up" as an act of redemptive suffering within the divine chastisement that we all so painfully experience.

The SSPX are not formally in schism. But the consecration of bishops was declared by Pope John Paul II as "schismatic." This is just a case of hearing "quacks" before definitively concluding that it's a duck. SUFFER through the Novus Ordo Mass and fulfill your obligation to keep holy the Lord's day. Don't pamper your spiritual needs with rationalized disobedience. Pray that the SSPX responds to grace and enters into communion with the Church. This is what the Holy Father asks. As faithful Catholics, THIS is what we should be doing, not reinforcing disobedience.

Philothea on Phire

Mr. Carroll, do you still hold this belief regarding SSPX masses?  Is it not hubris for you to assume this?

Yes, Drumshanbo, nice find.

Based on MV's videos, CMTV certainly still holds to this way of thinking. Fr. Z and CMTV are (at least wanted to be) in the same boat. I plan to reply to this post you found later.

Rather than write a long winded post, suffice to say that the post from Philothea on Phire accurately exemplifies the problem with CMTV.

In the Conciliar Church, which CMTV supports, you can be either a Mason, or a Communist, a Protestant, or an atheist, and still be in perfectly good standing - since we choose who we want to be in company with, and the Conciliar Church is the choice of CMTV, this conciliarism is what comes through in CMTV's videos.


 

I think it's outrageously unjust for CMTV's representatives to make such statements about Society Masses, contradicted both by reason and by Rome.

Here's what Rome said about the possibility of attending and financially supporting Society Masses.

In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of Saint Pius X ... a modest contribution to the collection at mass could be justified

Since you mentioned confessions,

Then there are painful cases that concern sins so severe they are penalized by excommunication reserved only to the Pope.

SSPX priests who confront these cases in the confessional absolve the penitent from the sin, and from the excommunication. According to Church policy, the priest must then send the case to Rome to be examined, and the excommunication formally lifted.

Bishop Fellay says, “Every time – absolutely every time – we have received an answer from Rome that the priest who took care of this confession did well, that it was perfectly in order, and it was both licit and valid.” Rome would then comment on the penance, whether it was sufficient or not enough.

In other words, Rome does not say the confession was invalid. Rome accepts the validity of the SSPX confession.

I think Mr. Voris is a good and convincing speaker and presenter and often offers persuasive facts and arguments and plays a positive role in informing Catholics about problems in the Church today and the way to resolving them. He's also right not to attack the Vicar of Christ or treat him as if were on par with just any other cleric or bishop. He should continue doing that.

All the same, every Catholic who loves and attends the TLM owes a great deal to Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Fellay and the Society and should recognize that. Just leave the Society alone if you disagree with them, it's not as if they don't recognize the Roman Church or the Pope and his authority, and in fact Rome has already promised them a canonical structure, possibly a personal prelature or apostolic administration with more or less independence from diocesan Bishops, once the doctrinal questions are sorted out, and if they hadn't insisted on the doctrinal discussions, they would already have it. There are far bigger problems in the mainstream Church as the Roman authorities recognize and, as Bishop Fellay said, it is by properly and fully solving those problems that the "problem of the Society" will cease to be such.